Superman

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by urbandefault, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    I hope not: Jon's cool. Not as fun now as he was before Bendis aged him up (:brickwall:), but still cool.
     
  2. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Probably.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I liked it when they adopted Zod's kid and called him Chris.
     
  4. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah and he’s gone now. Comics these days move way too fast. It’s one of the reasons I dropped out of them.
     
  5. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He's already been around six years--and like Damien he is pretty popular. Kal's still Superman as well, but Jon stars in the new official Superman title which is part of an extended storyline.
     
  6. Kaiju "the spy"

    Kaiju "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    But he did return during the Rebirth era, together with his parents, and founded the new Kryptonian colony that has not only been shown to still exist as New Krypton in the 31st century in Bendis' LoSH title, but also was a founding member of the United Planets.

    He may not make regular appearances, but Christopher, going by his birthname Lor-Zod now, is still part of the DCU.
     
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  7. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I am not oblivious to the importance of having diverse characters for inclusivity but it feels sometimes like this is getting like killing off a characters as a creative dead end and easy headline. What if it was the same character but he was black? What if it was the same character but now they're a woman? What if it was the same character but he was gay/bisexual? After a while it just gets numbing and feel more like a cheap decision than a meaningful one. Maybe it's just the crap media bite headlines we get, "Hellraiser is back and Pinhead is a woman!", "The first minor Marvel character is gay!", "Superman is bisexual!".
     
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  8. The Conscience of TNZ

    The Conscience of TNZ Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Marvel does it in part to make its comics look like America. DC does it in a sense to make them look like Marvel. Long ago Frank Miller was asked about his new Robin. He simply said ''She's white.''

    Batman is next, I wager. Not the films yet. The comics. I predict he'll remain male, but Bruce'll be reinvented as the richest brother in Gotham City.
     
  9. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Like you said, Marvel beat them to it.
     
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  10. Kaiju "the spy"

    Kaiju "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    Especially in this case, it was the writer Tom Taylor who made the choice, and DC editorial went along with it. And the Jon Kent Superman was already happening, Taylor was hired as the writer, and it was his decision to make him bisexual. Similarly, Tim Drake outing himself as bisexual a few months ago also was a decision by the writer, Meghan Fitzmartin, that was actually sprung on DC editorial. (see this article

    Similarly, Clive Barker is involved in the Hellraiser reboot, and the original novella that introduced the Cenobites described their leader (that turned into Pinhead for the movie) as such:

    Its voice, unlike that of its companion, was light and breathy-the voice of an excited girl. Every inch of its head had been tattooed with an intricate grid, and at every intersection of horizontal and vertical axes a jeweled pin driven through to the bone. Its tongue was similarly decorated.


    Note, the Lead Cenobite (Barker apparently never liked the "Pinhead" monicker the make-up department came up with) is described as an "it", and the only gender-specific part of the description is a female one.

    This really is mostly media making provocative headlines to stir up negative responses from people who aren't necessarily familiar with the subject matter.

    I mean, this happened:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Not to mention all the people who thought this was Clark being outed as bisexual.

    Nevermind that Clark Kent is still Superman. Just not the only Superman, anymore.

    Uh, ... there already is a black Batman, Jace Fox. And again, Bruce Wayne still around, still Batman. Just not the only one. It's basically the Miles Morales approach.
     
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  11. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The best approach to having your cake and eating it too, so to speak. Fans of the original can still read new stories of the original. And new fans can hopefully be created with the new character. I like this approach way more than outright replacing an potentially beloved character. Negatively is expected and honestly more understandable.
     
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  12. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Is there another approach where a comic creator can create a character, with his or her ethnicity and become a fresh character a reader has never read before without using a widely established title or icon? Miles Morales, Sam Wilson should be treated as characters to explore than the ethnic versions of something that are iconic. Why go through the effort to developed when readers know full well the character is a wannabe??? I don't think it helps those ethnic characters long term.

    The same for LGBTQ characters, should be created but not as a stunt to elevate the speculators on how much a comic book can be inflated in price on EBay or hobby stores, the canvas is large for them to exist and be compelling if the character is taken seriously and mold their direction for readers to behold. I think its lazy for a writer and artist to make a potential character inherits a brand they didn't earn.
     
  13. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Brand recognition.

    You'll get more eyes on the book if you start with that, generally.

    It's why we're in the era or reboots and revisits. It's an easier sell than something fresh and new. At the end of the day, it's still about money.

    Though I say this as someone that's eagerly waiting for volume 2 of Naomi who has no attachment to a previous character (funny enough, a Bendis co-creation who happened to co- create Miles). But I won't pretend her series would probably sell even better if she was a member of the bat or super family.
     
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  14. Kaiju "the spy"

    Kaiju "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, Milestone has been trying establish original minority characters for three decades now, and for the most part they couldn't even get collected editions of their already existing material, let alone new content.
     
  15. Sylvie

    Sylvie Goddess of Mischief Moderator

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    Miles Morales has been very successful and was the main character in his own movie which won an Academy Award, he's brought in new fans and especially young fans. Same goes with Sam Wilson as Cap, which lead to a hit series and there is a movie in the works. He means a lot to younger and new fans. Jon as Superman will do the same. This is about bringing in new fans and it's working. Years from now they will mean as much as Peter Parker, Steve Rogers, and Clark Kent because they will be the heroes that young people look up to and get inspired by.
     
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  16. The Conscience of TNZ

    The Conscience of TNZ Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Exactamundo. But Fox won't be the last black Batman. Wayne will be reimagined, possibly Alfred as well. It's inevitable. In my opinion, having two Batmans at the same time is a temporary gimmick. You can't replace Peter Parker indefinitely, so you have two Spider-Men for now. You'd think Peter would sue for copyright infringement.

    You certainly can't replace Bruce Wayne either, but you can change him to give him surface relevance. Did Wayne give his blessing to Lucius's son? Given how dangerous being a dynamic duo can be, I suspect he wouldn't approve of all Batman clones, even for the noblest of reasons.
     
  17. Kaiju "the spy"

    Kaiju "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Bruce Wayne once went ahead and founded an international Batman franchise recruiting individuals all around the world and bestowing the Batman title on them. I don't follow the Bat-books currently (there's just so many of them), so I don't know for sure, but I imagine he and Jace have at least an understanding. Saw a current ad for "Fear State", a crossover in the current Bat-books, making a distinction between "Batman" (Jace Fox) and "The Batman" (Bruce Wayne).

    As for black Bruce Wayne, I mean, probably? Somewhere down the line? Maybe as an Elseworld or something, though I doubt it would be a permanent change. And I don't think there are any plans currently to do that.

    And while I don't read Marvel Comics, I'm pretty sure Peter and Miles have an understanding, as well. And if I remember recent headlines correctly, Peter is being replaced by Ben Reilly again, so there. Anyway, I'm not sure how Peter could got to court about this, anyway. Certainly not without revealing his secret identity, and considering the lengths he's gone to to get it back after Civil War, I don't see him doing that anytime soon.
     
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  18. Sylvie

    Sylvie Goddess of Mischief Moderator

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    Peter is sort of a mentor to Miles when he needs advice, but generally lets him do his own thing. Ben replacing him is because Peter is sick and unable to be Spider-Man right now. Ben Reilly is the Kenny of the Marvel Universe so Peter will be back sooner or later.
     
  19. Wednesday Addams

    Wednesday Addams Princess of the Dark Arts Premium Member

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    Interesting discussion. @Mr. Adventure, I think a lot of the fuss is because of crap media headlines. Comics companies have tried to look "inclusive" at various times, with sometimes laughably horrible results (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraño?wprov=sfla1).

    But most of what we've been seeing for the past 20+ years has been because the people *creating* comics have become more diverse, as have the people *reading* comics. I remember the first time I met another woman who read comics - the heavens opened and angels sang! :biggrin: So I'm good with this.

    I had another thought: younger folks are questioning *everything* about gender & sexuality. Of the "kids" I know well, aged 14 to 20, they ask questions I didn't even *think* to ask until I talked to them! They're redefining this stuff, and won't stand for bullshit in life or fiction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021 at 2:03 AM