Spoilers "Superman & Lois" Season 3

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Realist, Feb 15, 2023.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I still think it's probably an overstatement to call it a "cliffhanger" -- the interview just said "a bit of a cliffhanger," which probably means just a minor tease like Natalie showing up at the end of season 1. I'm sure the main storylines for the season will be resolved, since it's rare these days for any single story arc to last beyond one season.


    Ah, but what specific things? Whether a show gets renewed on commercial TV comes down to whether advertisers are willing to buy enough ad time to pay for it, and they make that decision based on their estimate of the ratings the show is likely to attract. Giving a season a definite ending gives casual viewers a jumping-off point, while leaving it open-ended gives them an incentive to come back, so advertisers might believe a show with a cliffhanger ending is likely to get better ratings than one without. It's not likely to be decisive by itself, but as one factor out of many being weighed, it might be enough to tip the balance in a close decision. Every little bit helps.

    Besides, people forget that network execs can be fans too. They do ultimately have to base their decisions on money, but often they want to keep a show around and will look for any excuse to save it, any way they can finesse the budget to let it survive. For instance, the original Quantum Leap only lasted as long as it did, despite lackluster ratings, because NBC president Brandon Tartikoff was a huge fan of it. Conversely, FOX's Alien Nation was cancelled despite massive critical acclaim because network president Barry Diller just plain didn't like it, but other FOX executives protested the cancellation and worked to find a way to keep the series on the air, even commissioning a TV-movie continuation that got as far as having two scripts written before Diller rejected them sight unseen. But when Diller left a couple of years later, his successor, who loved the show, put the movie scripts back into production, and five Alien Nation TV movies were made over the next several years.

    Indeed, Alien Nation ended its only regular season on a cliffhanger at network request. I believe that's because it was getting lower ratings than hoped for, and the network hoped an exciting cliffhanger would generate more interest. It might've worked if not for Diller's disinterest. (The movie meant to resolve the cliffhanger was delayed four years, so they ended up rewriting the movie to basically restart the cliffhanger from scratch, effectively decanonizing the season finale. Which was okay, because it was a forced, overdone cliffhanger that even its own writers didn't care for.)
     
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  2. Sketcher

    Sketcher Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It would be cool if the cliffhanger was akin to Angel. Something like -- well it'd be cool to see how that event turns out, but thematically it works as a series closer as well. Maybe something like Jordan taking on the Superboy persona and flying off with Superman.
     
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  3. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So Superman isn't a boob guy. That's good to know. We all know he's a leg man.
    I think its safe to say she will have the reconstruction surgery. It'll be too costly to remove them in each shot of her otherwise.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    He gets sea sick focusing on all that saline, silicone and milk hypnotically slooshing back and forth.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
  5. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

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    No it won’t. My sister in law had such surgery and no one can tell without being told. The only thing she stopped doing from before was wearing a bikini.
     
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  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    This was a terrific episode, a very sensitive handling of an issue I hadn't realized was a factor here, since they hadn't mentioned mastectomy before. Nice to see a couple talking maturely about their sex life and still having it feel wholesome and Superman-worthy, because there really is nothing wrong with it.

    It did bug me that the fight scene on Main Street was choreographed with so much property destruction. I'd think Superman would've tried harder to avoid that and get Miller out of town as soon as possible. It's his hometown, after all.

    I don't like how irrational John Henry is becoming, letting Mannheim push his buttons and turning this into a macho head-butting contest. Superman was right that positive reinforcement and negotiation are a more effective way to get what you want out of an interrogation subject than threats and intimidation. At least they're remembering that in the writing, showing that JH's tactics are counterproductive, but it's an unflattering portrait of him.



    They could just wrap her chest tightly. Breasts are compressible, despite the assumptions of people who design rigid boob armor for video games and TV/movies. Or they could just put her in loose clothing.

    But yeah, I think they'll go the reconstruction route. Although there's another possibility. When Mannheim told his son that he'd found a way to cure Peia by studying Bizarro's corpse, I realized that might lead to a miracle cure for both Peia and Lois. They already established that Clark & Lois don't want to use Kryptonian superscience to give Lois an out that other cancer patients don't have, but maybe Mannheim could use his Bizarro cure on Lois without her consent, maybe as a test case for Peia's treatment.

    It would be a copout on the writers' part, and I don't think they're likely to go there given how well they've handled the arc so far, but it struck me as a possibility.
     
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  7. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

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    There are prosthetic bras—both partial (my wife is picking hers up right now) and complete (my sister in law has some). In each case, if you don’t know, you can’t tell (they are custom made from original measurements). No CGI or anything “special” is needed for anything other than showing the post-op scar (doubtful they’ll show the whole thing) or if they insist on making Lois wear revealing clothes on a regular basis (which would be incredibly odd as they’ve NOT done so until now).

    As to the episode and its cancer scenes—once again top notch. The conversation was quite close to the one my wife and I had (couple of lines were near identical…eerily so). They’ve been excellent with that aspect so far. I only hope they don’t falter before season’s end.
     
  8. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Superman and Lois
    Season 3 - Episode 9 - "The Dress"


    SM/Clark / Lois:
    Flashback to 17 years ago, where Clark tries to settle on possible locations for their wedding venue; Lois was not too thrilled with some of his ideas, but she adds that the right spot will be worth waiting for--just as he is worth waiting for. She learns she's been nominated for the Metropolis Press Club Award based on her piece on Henry Miller, much to her surprise...

    Present day Lois--collecting clothes for the drive--finds the dress Clark bought for her outing to the award show; she reminisces about Clark being so loving to her that he sold his prized baseball card collection to pay for the dress (OHH, THE HORROR--NOT THE CARDS!! ;) ). Despite her fond memory about Clark's dedication to her, she tosses the garment on the donation pile...

    The present: At the cancer clinic, Lois learns she only has one chemo treatment left, but that's not the end of her journey. She will need a double mastectomy.

    Back at the farm, Clark's attempt at intimacy is rebuffed by Lois, who says she's not feeling well. He's also taken aback by Lois wanting to give away the dress he bought for her 17 years ago, and her reason why.

    At the clothing drive, Lana discovers the dress and questions Clark about Lois' upcoming mastectomy, and whether or not he's discussed the personal implications of the procedure. Clark says he feels he cannot as he cannot understand something he will never experience, so Lana offers to speak to Lois. Initially, Lois shuts out Lana about her mood, why she donated the dress--everything. Eventually, Lois slowly opens up, seeing the mastectomy as taking a part of her not only in the physical sense, but in essence, going on to talk about the importance of breasts to a woman, and how she--despite wanting to be recognized for her mind, the sexual identity she once felt (something she says to Clark in the MPCA flashback) is no longer there for her, hence her resistance to being intimate with Clark.

    In the wake of Irons killing Miller--a story exploding on social media--Clark breifly speaks to the twins, unable to assure them how Irons is doing.

    Lana / Irons / Natalie: At the local clothing drive, Lana speaks with Irons in private about recent events (Clark informed her about the Manheim / Peia incident); although Peia is contained at the D.O.D., they're frustrated with Manheim's legal armor protecting him from being arrested / charged with attempted murder.
    Lana moves closer, telling Irons he can talk to her, and there's a moment exchanged between them, but that is brought to an end by his phone....

    Natalie complains to Sarah about the tracking device and a upgraded taser wand her father has ordered her to carry; Sarah empathizes with Natalie over losing Matteo, but also understands Irons' concern.

    Irons / Sam / Superman: Sam calls Irons in to the D.O.D., where Manheim and his attorney wait to negotiate for Peia's release; Irons will meet with the criminal, stating the obvious--that the Manheim issue is more his fight than Superman's, a point supported by Sam. Superman does not agree with Irons being the one to meet the criminal in consideration of their previous encounter.

    Manheim's attorney asks for Peia to be released, which is rejected by Irons--at least until Manheim returns Bizarro's corpse, Superman's blood and all samples of X-Kryptonite; the attorney performs the usual evasive tactics, but Manheim's had enough, growling about Peia's terminal condition...a reaction met with Irons' cold shrug (SEE NOTES). Manheim promises he will see his wife--one way or another.

    Superrman strongly suggests Manheim should be allowed to see his dying wife; Irons reminds SM that the Manheims are murderers and should not be seen as anything else. SM believes he can get through to Manheim, but Irons fires back, suggesting he (SM) would be in a compromised position by allowing his emotions--referring to Lois' condition--to influence his judgement regarding Manheim.

    Superman and Manheim: SM files to Manheim's home, trying to empathize with the criminal about Peia--recalling how he realized how much Peia meant to Manheim the moment she collapsed. SM promises Manheim will be able to see his wife again...only if the criminal returns the stolen items. As Manheim appears ready to agree to a deal, SM hears approaching men--who turn out to be Irons leading Sam and a unit of D.O.D. soldiers into Manheim's office....

    With Manheim in handcuffs, the D.O.D team scour his devices; Superman argues with Irons, saying they cannot meet threats with threats, but Irons has to constantly remind SM of the mounting threats made against his family (SEE NOTES). Frustrated by Irons' lack of honesty about SM's intended visit, Sam takes him off of the Manheim case (in a leadership position). The glaring between Irons and Manheim is palpable, leading one to feel someone might end up in a state opposite of alive...

    That evening (at Manheim's lab), he orders the resuscitation of Henry Miller, and its not long before the villaina finds his target--Irons. Following Manheim's command, Miller attacks Irons, beating him into the Smallville streets--Irons' wrist controller shorting out. Miller mocks Irons, saying he's "nothing" without the suit. Irons is saved by Superman, who is barely able to keep Miller at bay. As Miller sends Superman hurtling several miles away, Irons' wrist device finally functions, and as ordered, the hammer slams into Miller, felling him to the ground. The injured Irons delivers another blow to Miller, ending the threat. Irons tells Superman he had no other choice, while SM replies "You always have a choice" (SEE NOTES).

    Natalie tries to make a rather poor, guilt-tripping parallel between the how and why her mother died (and wishing they could have spent Lois' last minutes with her) to the situation with Matteo and Peia. She skips over the fact Peia tried to kill her father, while Manheim continues his murderous campaign against Irons.

    Manheim / Peia / Matteo: Returning from the D.O.D. meeting, Manheim is confronted by Matteo, the teen full of anger, going so far as to blame his father for Peia's situation. Manheim does not take the accusation lightly, but tells his son that everything he's done is for Matteo and Hob's Bay. Matteo is less than flattered by this statement. Manheim promises the boy he will be able to see his mother again...

    Returning from seeing Natalie, Matteo is flat out defiant to his father, going so far as to question whether or not Manheim (or his henchmen) would kill him, but his anger turns to heartache, as he believes he will never see his mother again. Manheim takes this moment as the opportunity to show his son the secret lab...and Bizarro, telling his son that he's found the way to cure Peia....

    Jordan and Jonathan II: A slightly deflated Jordan asks Jonathan to promise not to tell their parents about Jonathan possibly losing his job thanks to Jordan's rescue, or that Kyle is suspicious another super-being is in Smallville. With the burden Clark and Lois are going through, Jonathan agrees to keep a lid on Jordan's problems...

    At the diner, Natalie discusses her problems with Sarah and the twins, but Natalie's need for neutral ears spirals into tension when Jonathan suggests she let Matteo go because of his parents; Natalie jumps on that, asking Jonathan about his maintaining a relationship with Candace--a girl with a drug dealing father who stole Jonathan's truck & punched him in the face. Jonathan argues that the Candace situation is not the same, but Natalie--seeing her father approaching--walks off in a huff, leaving Jordan to criticize his brother's tactless approach with a "good one".

    Irons and Natalie leave the diner, but are met by a carload of Manheim's henchmen; using the wand, Irons beats the men back, and calls attention to the scene by breaking their car window. The tactic worked, as several citizens whip out their phones and cover the attack. The henchmen speed away, leaving Irons to call Sam about ending the Manheim situation once and for all.

    At the farm, the twins and Sarah try to wrap their heads around all things Manheim; Jonathan--feeling guilty--talks to Natalie, ultimately encouraging her to find some way of seeing Matteo, despite her father's rules. A meeting is arranged, and before long, Natalie and Matteo express their love for each other--but not before Matteo informs Natalie that her father is behind his mother's containment at the D.O.D.

    Sarah manages to get the knucklehead Kent brothers to reconcile.

    Clark and Lois: Lois stares at the dress, thinking back to the award show, but more importantly, how she felt about herself--how Clark made her feel. The dress meant more than being something tied to her profession. In fact, it had nothing to do with that at all. It has become a symbol of who she used to be: a woman she fears will no longer be within her. She shares her concerns with Clark, who tells her the forthcoming surgery may make her feel very different about herself, including lacking any desire to be intimate. Lois questions Clark about his view on this--if he would still love her the same once her body changes, bears the scars of surgery, etc.; Clark assures her that he will always love and support her, no matter what changes she has to endure. Referring to the dress, Clark says he was attracted to her--not the dress--the essence of who she is...and then owns up to what he thought of her when wearing that dress.

    The couple reenact their night out some 17 years ago--Lois just as beautiful in the dress, as if the 17 years had not passed. Embracing, Clark slowly lifts off with Lois, both affirming their love for each other.

    NOTES:
    Another fine episode, balancing the sensitivity concerning Lois' depression and forthcoming mastectomy with the blistering tension between Irons, Manheim and Superman.

    Lois' behavior--a quiet resignation to all that is happening to her--was not easy to see; as one who knows many cancer survivors (and those who lost their fight), I can say Tulloch's portrayal carried the same kind of still, lonely weight i've witnessed, and for so many women in that position, there's no amount or combination of caring words that will alter their perspective of the new reality. Lana tried to reach Lois in a way Clark could not, but the blank gaze returned by Lois let the viewers know Lana would need to put some work in to even reach Lois.

    Where Irons was concerned, Superman / Clark was presented as being unable to feel like a human being--to allow himself to open himself to seeing the troubles of another, rather than speaking from his dispassionate perch. While the writers attempted to make SM seem he was taking a "reasonable" approach to dealing with Manheim, the entire matter--from Superman's perspective--came off as astoundingly immature. For anyone who ever had to speak to, or have any kind of interaction with criminals, the single most important lesson one learns is that you do not make soft negotiations, especially during a period where the criminal has not been arrested or charged with a crime, as he's still in a position of control and can--and often will--use said position to his advantage. I must conclude the writers were pushing this kind of mentality in SM just to force a certain plot along, or they are so lacking in life experience, that they made Superman incredibly immature, because his entire head-butting with Irons had him in the wrong from start to finish.

    One can sit on their aforementioned perch and play the dreamy, objective, balance-the-scales game in his head, but that fails to address or provide a solution to a top-level criminal who has been proven to be an unrelenting threat. Everyone Irons holds dear--not even thinking of himself--has been placed in harm's way. His reactions were realistic and rational--he's seeing Manheim like an adult should...I just worry the writers will have him admit to a fault that does not exist, all to justify Superman's stand.

    Superman saying "You always have a choice" made him utterly tone deaf to the fragility of human life--how close Irons and his family are to being murdered. If one does not have an answer to a threat which will not be talked down, or stand down, he will never offer any sensible, reality-based advice.

    The Kids: Sheesh. On the one hand, Jonathan comes off as the more level headed of the Kent twins. On the other, he's become irrational with his prodding a vulnerable Natalie to defy her father to see Irons. Did he simply forget Manheim tried to kill her father--and his own? I felt this scene--no matter how teenager-y / nonsensical--was just a set up to eventually draw the increasingly isolated Irons into a trap set by Manheim.

    One can only imagine how Irons will overflow with anger if he discovers yet another Kent was on the wrong side of the Manheim matter. Things are no better at home, with Natalie being so caught up in her teen drama that the fact she witnessed Manheim and Peia's attempts on her father's life go soaring over her head in favor of questioning why Peia is detained.

    Now that Matteo has seen the lab and Bizarro, he's no longer a passive bystander. He will soon need to make a choice to stand by his father, or...

    Lana and Irons: the series is teasing a romance, but I get the feeling it will be dead-on-arrival before the end of the season.

    GRADE: A+.
     
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  9. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Superman's more compassionate and humane approach was working; Mannheim was ready to make a deal before the DOD stormed his home under Irons's direction. The escalating threats and violence against John Henry and Natalie were the result of Irons's hardline attitude toward dealing with Mannheim.

    I know your usual position in these discussions is that the bad guys cannot be redeemed or reasoned with, that a violent (even lethal) course is the only realistic response to threats, and that any other choice on the heroes' part is pollyannaish tripe. But as always, I prefer my Superman stories to favor idealism and optimism, and I can't agree that Clark was wrong to advocate for a better solution here.

    That said, I'm glad to see you're continuing to enjoy this excellent season.
     
  10. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Premium Member

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    This season has performed a miracle. Lois writing her will actually caused my mother, who had previously refused, to write one. I need to send a thank you note to the writers. :)
     
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  11. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This might be the best Arrowverse season out of all the seasons of all the Arrowverse shows. Granted at this point the series itself barely even feels like a Arrowverse show at this point.
     
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  12. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

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    I made my parents get their affairs in order. I’m in charge of dealing with all of it (my brother is completely unreliable, to be kind). There was no way I was going to leave it all to unspoken whims.
     
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  13. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Premium Member

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    I'm an only child and I've been trying to get her to do it for *years*.
     
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  14. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Had a conversation with my mother a few months back about her will. Surreal moment and a bit scary.
     
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  15. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

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    I told my parents I would leave everything up to the state to decide if they didn’t take care of their affairs. And then I made an appointment with an estate attorney, drove 500km through a blizzard to pick them up and take them to the attorney’s office and made them stay there until they laid out their wishes. Then I paid for it. Five years later, I had them transform their wills into a revocable trust (simplifies my life as it gets rid of probate). I basically treated them as if they were my kids and ordered them to do it. Previously, I tried to gently steer them into it but they kept putting it off. They’d done a will once before, during the Carter administration. Couldn’t find their copy. The lawyer who’d drawn it up had been dead for twenty years. A nightmare. But now everything is in order.
     
  16. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm currently dealing with what happens when it isn't all in order and with dementia involved to boot so yeah be tough on your parents when it comes to this stuff.
     
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  17. tenmei

    tenmei Commodore Commodore

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    Still waiting for the BBC to announce the air date for the third season in the UK. It took ages for S1 but we got S2 relatively quickly
     
  18. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sometimes, getting troublesome parents to put their legal house in order requires "forceful persuasion". That means being frank about the unavoidable disasters they will set into motion for the kids if they simply sit on their hands and never do what is--in my opinion--their responsibility, unless they simply do not give a crap, or--as I've witnessed time and again with other aged parents--some feel "spooked" by the idea of drafting a will, as if doing it sets their deaths into motion.

    My mother had no issue with drafting her will at all. My father was another matter, but eventually, he grew tired of fighting about it, and accepted it for what it is, which meant it was not rushing him to the cemetery.
     
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  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This Earth is in the new multiverse Oliver created, because it has a Diggle, but that is not the Superman from Crisis, because his children are wrong.

    It's almost not an Arrowverse Show, and it is the last Arrowverse Show, if you don't count Doom Patrol, which is canceled with 6 remaining unaired episodes.
     
  20. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I know but in away every show the multiverse is sort of a Arrowverse or at least the ones created for CW.