Supergirl - Season Four

[Kirk Prime]

Maybe a future episode will explore the question of whether Lynda Carter's character should be charged with a crime, including treason.

That would actually be interesting. She did lie about her eligibility to be president, and ran anyway. I don't know about that being treason, but there is a fraud involved. No one should be above the law, especially the president, and aside from that very big lie, Carter's character seems honorable enough that she should face the consequences of her crime.

Nope. A child of non-Americans not born in America is the very definition of not natural born American. Or are you saying that Jor-El or Lara was actually an American?

In the comics, this exact issue came up once in a story called Armegeddon 2001. The basic story was that there was a superhero in the future that would betray and kill all the other heroes. A time traveler went back in time to find and kill that hero before he could do that and set himself up as a monarch. One of this time traveler's powers was to be able to touch someone and view their most likely future.

So he was testing Superman and found a terrible future for him where Metropolis is nuked and Lois dies, setting Superman off the deep end where he eventually had to be killed with Kryptonite by Batman. Not good, but he was not the monarch. Yet somehow, some way, even though he shouldn't have even known he was encountering the time traveler, his super memory led him to stop that nuclear bomb and change his fate.

So he was tested again. This time, there was an accident and Jonathan Kent was killed. This led to a chain of events where Clark's identity was outed when saving the President. Eventually, Clark was urged to run for President himself, and he did. That's when the question of eligibility came up, and the Supreme Court ruled he was a naturally born citizen.

Of course, that applied to THAT version of Superman--one that was in a birthing matrix on the way to Krypton and wasn't a baby there.

Though would the ruling be that different? Clark would have been presumed a citizen under current law. He was found as a baby, under the age of 5, in the US, and legally adopted. But where I am unclear is what happens if it is found out later that he was born elsewhere? Could the status of a naturally born citizen be revoked? I honestly don't know.

There is no precedent, obviously, as to what happens with an alien. No one was ever even born in space.

So Mardsen is different than Superman as she came to Earth as an adult.

A crime was committed. They SHOULD have her face consequences.

 

[Christopher]

Birthers believed Obama was lying about his origins with no evidence other than racism, conspiracy theory, and rumor. In this case, we have concrete proof that the President of the United States was ineligible to hold the office, and she knew it from the beginning. You're once again equating two situations that are very, very different.

Different in detail, comparable in importance. Lying about an incidental job qualification is not remotely comparable to something like colluding with a foreign government to steal an election or cover up a journalist's murder.

As for whose actions would be more likely to bring our system of government to the breaking point: I'm going with President Marsden on this one. She opened up the potential invalidation of every action of her administration, every signed piece of legislation, every judicial decision made with her appointed judges, and every investigation/lawsuit performed by her appointed justice officials. At minimum, she set-back the alien rights movement by years; at worst, she helped foster an insurrectionist movement in our own country by lighting the fires of bigotry and fear (something she should have known would have happened when/if her lies were uncovered).

And you're blaming a member of a persecuted group for the hate fomented by their persecutors, and I find that obscene.

 

[Snaploud]

Different in detail, comparable in importance. Lying about an incidental job qualification is not remotely comparable to something like colluding with a foreign government to steal an election or cover up a journalist's murder.

I think the potential consequences of President Marsden's actions could be catastrophic for the country's institutions and over-all stability. You disagree. I can't show you an alternate reality to prove my point, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And you're blaming a member of a persecuted group for the hate fomented by their persecutors, and I find that obscene.

I think it's a bit more complicated than you do. Yes, in almost all cases, such a judgment would be wrong (or "obscene" as you put it), but we are talking about some extreme circumstances (or, at least, I believe it's extreme circumstances). Actions have consequences, and we have to weigh the good with the bad. In Marsden's case: she defrauded the American people and risked a civil war in the process. It's not obscene to expect her to take some responsibility for the consequences of her actions.

 

[Christopher]

In Marsden's case: she defrauded the American people and risked a civil war in the process. It's not obscene to expect her to take some responsibility for the consequences of her actions.

No. No, damn it. She didn't cause the conditions that "risked a civil war." The anti-alien bigots created those conditions. If not for the hate that Cadmus and groups like them had been stirring up, the reaction would not have been nearly this extreme.

And again, you're out-and-out wrong when you claim the episode didn't show her taking responsibility for her actions. SHE RESIGNED. SHE REFUSED TO TAKE A PARDON. I've already pointed that out to you, so your pretense that you aren't aware of those facts is disingenuous.

 

[Kirk Prime]

That said, taking responsibility after she got caught isn't exactly that honest and genuine. She did lie in the first place. It's good she owned it after the fact--better than denying it like a Clinton, but there should still be consequences.

 

[Snaploud]

No. No, damn it. She didn't cause the conditions that "risked a civil war."

Yeah, she did. She lied her way into the oval office knowing it would sow distrust in government were she found out.

The anti-alien bigots created those conditions. If not for the hate that Cadmus and groups like them had been stirring up, the reaction would not have been nearly this extreme.

Really? If Trump were found out to be an alien tomorrow (in a world without the influences you name): you think the reaction would be less extreme?

And again, you're out-and-out wrong when you claim the episode didn't show her taking responsibility for her actions. SHE RESIGNED. SHE REFUSED TO TAKE A PARDON. I've already pointed that out to you, so your pretense that you aren't aware of those facts is disingenuous.

Did she admit that her actions were wrong? Without that admission: she hasn't truly taken responsibility for her actions.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Really? If Trump were found out to be an alien tomorrow (in a world without the influences you name): you think the reaction would be less extreme?

The reaction would be more extreme. The left is already beyond intolerant and crazy when it comes to Trump, so that revelation would likely have them catatonic. The difference is that the right would also agree that Trump would be ineligible and he would have to removed from office. He'd be out of office as fast as Marsdin. Of course if Obama were in office and found to be an alien, the democrats would ignore the Constitution and cry racism to try to save him, and keep it partisan.

I don't think this would even rise to impeachment. I think such a president would be removed by default and the Supreme Court would likely have to make it happen. Impeachment requires the actions of both the House and the Senate. But if the president is ineligible to serve due to that kind of a fraud, they wouldn't have the option to keep him.

 

[Romulan_spy]

The reaction would be more extreme. The left is already beyond intolerant and crazy when it comes to Trump, so that revelation would likely have them catatonic. The difference is that the right would also agree that Trump would be ineligible and he would have to removed from office. He'd be out of office as fast as Marsdin.

I disagree. The Right is all in for Trump and would defend him no matter what. The "crazy" reaction by the Left would just embolden the Right to defend Trump even more. What would probably happen is that the right would completely dismiss any accusation that Trump is an alien and claim that it's all just a made up doctored video by the Left desperate to stop Trump because they hate him so much. So the Right would refuse to believe the evidence that Trump is an alien and still defend Trump.

 

[DigificWriter]

Really? If Trump were found out to be an alien tomorrow (in a world without the influences you name): you think the reaction would be less extreme?

Yes.

The lengths to which our current President's supporters - and party - will go to excuse, ignore, or otherwise explain his actions honestly knows no bounds, and it would be funny watching them twist themselves into knots if the consequences of their actions weren't so incredibly disturbing and disastrous.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I disagree. The Right is all in for Trump and would defend him no matter what. The "crazy" reaction by the Left would just embolden the Right to defend Trump even more. What would probably happen is that the right would completely dismiss any accusation that Trump is an alien and claim that it's all just a made up doctored video by the Left desperate to stop Trump because they hate him so much. So the Right would refuse to believe the evidence that Trump is an alien and still defend Trump.

I'm guessing you're not a Republican, so I'm not sure you have an accurate picture of how conservatives think.

Now it IS true that we don't trust the media. The constant lies about Trump and the ridiculous bias made it that way. But for purposes of this fact pattern, we have to assume that it is true. 100 percent, not debatable. True.

At that point--Trump would have to go.

But you are right that conservatives would not simply take the word of the media alone.

 

[stj]

The politics in this are rather cunning, aren't they? In this fictional universe, Birtherism is *true* and not shameless racist demagogy. As to remedies, vacate all of Marsdin's executive orders and appointments. Congress can pass again any legislation vetoed by Marsdin and see if Baker also vetoes it, then vote to override, or not. These are not difficult remedies, so there is not really a crisis. It's not nearly as traumatic as discovering a spouse hadn't told you they were a post-op transgender. (Speaking of which, didn't believe for even a fraction of a second that woman was transgender.)

Poitics crop up in SF more often than in supposedly realistic TV and movies. But sometimes the SF trappings get in the way. SF aliens might have the kinds of technology that make them a real threat. And even in fiction their alien nature should make them unpredictable in their affections and enmities. The racial animus propelling Birtherism is in this fictional universe not old bigotry, but seemingly rational. But to my taste, imagining a Birtherism as valid is fundamentally foolish, at best. It's like BattleStar Galactica imaging militant monotheists with supernatural subversive powers really destroying our way of life, and threatening to just plain kill us all.

 

[Snaploud]

As to remedies, vacate all of Marsdin's executive orders and appointments. Congress can pass again any legislation vetoed by Marsdin and see if Baker also vetoes it, then vote to override, or not. These are not difficult remedies, so there is not really a crisis.

Are we also vacating all justice department actions and judicial decisions related to those appointments? Should all affected appeals court cases be reheard regardless of the original outcome? Should promoted judges (those going from the district courts to the courts of appeals) be allowed to return to their lower offices? Thousands upon thousands of lives would be affected by those decisions.

 

[stj]

Are we also vacating all justice department actions and judicial decisions related to those appointments? Should all affected appeals court cases be reheard regardless of the original outcome? Should promoted judges (those going from the district courts to the courts of appeals) be allowed to return to their lower offices? Thousands upon thousands of lives would be affected by those decisions.

Answers, respectively: No, because they are not unilateral actions of an improperly seated president.They are the actions of officials confirmed by the Senate. Any new official renominated by a proper president and confirmed would be able to reverse all the actions done solely by the department of justice. All decisions of the affected appeals courts taken can be appealed to the Supreme Court on the grounds they were decided on invalid authority...but it would be up to the Supreme Court to decide whether to let stand, reverse or order a new trial. If the new judges in the lower courts were nominated by the improper president, they wouldn't be on the lower courts any more, and the promoted judges would be in their original seats.The assumption that every action and every person contaminated by the unholy authority of a usurper king must be erased is invalid.

The real effect of such a change is the installation of a new person into an office that increasingly acts as an elective monarchy, with prerogative rights and sovereign immunities. Any such person can instantly, radically purge personnel at all levels, sharply reversing policy and packing the judiciary. But then, this is always a possibility when any vice president takes over. Birtherism has nothing to do with it.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Nia and Brainy needs to be a thing.

I thought that was at least part of what was weighing on his mind after he returned to the DEO. I just hope he's looking beyond the fact she stood up for him, and "dips his toes in the water" to express feelings for a human at a time when their relationship could spell grave danger for both.

 

[nightwind1]

(Speaking of which, didn't believe for even a fraction of a second that woman was transgender.

That's interesting, because the actress herself is a trans woman.

 

[Ovation]

Speaking of which, didn't believe for even a fraction of a second that woman was transgender

What? You didn’t believe the transgender character is a transgender woman even though the person playing the character is actually a transgender woman? And even though there has been considerable press coverage of exactly that fact? Umm. Okay.

 

[Greg Cox]

What? You didn’t believe the transgender character is a transgender woman even though the person playing the character is actually a transgender woman? And even though there has been considerable press coverage of exactly that fact? Umm. Okay.

Yes, Nicola Maines has recently been profiled in the New York Times, USA Today, etc. And was something of a transgender celebrity and activist even before she was cast in SUPERGIRL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Maines

 

[Awesome Possum]

(Speaking of which, didn't believe for even a fraction of a second that woman was transgender.)

What do you think trans women are supposed to look like?

 

[DigificWriter]

What do you think trans women are supposed to look like?

Do you really want stj to answer that question?

It seems like it's just inviting an insult to you and other Trans persons (intentional or otherwise).

 

[Awesome Possum]

Do you really want stj to answer that question?

It seems like it's just inviting an insult to you and other Trans persons (intentional or otherwise).

I know, but there's a lot on this board that hurts me. But it would just show how deeply transphobia is intrenched into society. Mainly because the concept of a trans woman has been so corrupted and misrepresented that people can't believe a trans woman is a trans woman because she looks like a woman. This is why I get so upset about cis actors, especially cis men playing trans women. It sends the idea that we look like men, are ugly, and have features that immediately out us. Most likely all of you have encountered trans women in your day to day life and just never noticed. Trans women look like women because not every single woman looks alike, so we blend in with other women. Once only trans women are allowed to play trans women, that attitude will change and it can't happen soon enough. Because it's not just general transphobia, it hurts trans people because it tells them that they can only be that ugly parody that's put on screen and rewarded for being so brave.