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Spoilers Supergirl - Season 2

Superman isn't super strong because he's *really* big and buff. An overweight, asthmatic Kryptonian could still flatten a building.
So no, Superman doesn't need to be the tallest, most imposing and physically fit looking person in the room. He just needs to be the most "super" person in the room.
 
Superman isn't super strong because he's *really* big and buff. An overweight, asthmatic Kryptonian could still flatten a building.
So no, Superman doesn't need to be the tallest, most imposing and physically fit looking person in the room. He just needs to be the most "super" person in the room.

Absolutely. I'm amazed Danny Devito wasn't considered for the role.
 
Absolutely. I'm amazed Danny Devito wasn't considered for the role.
I'm going to be charitable and assume you're not intentionally strawmanning and instead just entirely missing the point.
The complaint I was responding was that they guy playing Olsen is taller and fitter looking than the guy playing Superman, thus less credible in the role. It was not that Superman was fit looking in general.
 
I'm going to be charitable and assume you're not intentionally strawmanning and instead just entirely missing the point.
The complaint I was responding was that they guy playing Olsen is taller and fitter looking than the guy playing Superman, thus less credible in the role. It was not that Superman was fit looking in general.

No I got your point. I don't really agree with your line of thinking but I got it.
 
Who's to say that Jim wasn't a weed or a tubbo 10 years ago before he met Superman, and that it was meeting Kal-El which put him on a fitness kick until he became such a superb physical specimen?
 
Hoechlin is more convincing than Tom Welling ? Wow. Granted Welling never actually played Superman but for me at least, he was as perfect as I've ever seen as CK. If I had to design a Superman from the ground up I think he'd come out looking like Tom Welling.

I find that astonishing. I think Welling was badly miscast. There were moments in later seasons where, if I was in a generous mood, I could almost see him as a marginally plausible proto-Superman, but most of the time I was very unimpressed.

I think part of the issue is that you seem to be going almost exclusively by appearance, whereas to me, the vocal performance is also very important. Welling's constant dull mumbling got on my nerves. There were occasions when he gave a more convincing performance, so maybe the writing and directing was more at fault, but I just never liked him much. He's by far my least favorite live-action Clark Kent.


Dean Cain played Superman and CK far differently

I'd say "slightly differently." There was virtually no difference in his vocal performance, and Cain has a rather distinctive voice and a rather Shatnerian, pause-filled rhythm, so I never found it credible that people couldn't easily recognize that Clark and Superman had the same voice. I'll grant that his Superman was a bit more formal and authoritative than his Clark, not as laid-back, but the voice was so much the same that it outweighed that for me. I never found Cain as convincing as Superman as he was as Clark -- which isn't surprising, since the first-season producers wanted to minimize Superman's presence and so they cast him to be Clark first and foremost. (Which is probably why they picked Cain over his runner-up, Kevin Sorbo. I think Sorbo would've made a much more convincing Superman, though I don't know how effective his Clark would've been.)


James Olsen ? Better tell Superman that, he called him Jimmy in the show.

As James said in the pilot, that nickname was reserved for his mother and "the big guy." Olsen wanted to get out from his "boy sidekick" image and establish himself as his own man, so he moved to National City and started going by James, but he still let his mother and Superman call him Jimmy because of their long-standing relationships. That's hardly implausible.

Besides the point anyway, this isn't about his character development, which I actually find very refreshing, it's about the fact he is more physically imposing than Superman. To me, that doesn't sit quite right.

But as I tried to explain, it fits well with the intent behind this version of the character, which is that he's not the boy sidekick anymore, that a decade has passed and he's outgrown everyone's image of who Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen should be and is trying to make a name for himself beyond that preconception. So having him now be taller than Superman illustrates that "outgrowing" very nicely. He's not supposed to be the same as the Jimmy we're used to. That's the entire point.


we were promised the Superman we had been waiting on, I think Superman works best as a clean cut kinda guy. I know this show has mastered the art of re-imagining characters, and on the whole I'm fine with that. Superman in my head canon though is untouchable. I don't wanna see him appear scruffy and unshaven. It doesn't work for me

Well, I'm not sure that's even fair. Some men -- myself included, to an extent -- just naturally have pale skin and very dark hair so that, no matter how clean-shaven they are, they still have a bit of shadow visible on the chin. And modern HD cameras would show that more clearly, so it'd be harder to hide. So frankly I think you're being pretty damn insulting by assuming that any man with even a trace of stubble visible must be slovenly and unwashed. I mean, what, are you posting from 1954? Standards have changed. These days, a bit of stubble is considered perfectly acceptable for a well-groomed man, even desirable and fashionable.
 
Oh god. Kevin Sorbo as Superman? No, please no!

He can be a really good actor when he has strong directors/producers to rein in his self-indulgent side. He certainly would've cut an impressive figure as Superman, big and strong and square-jawed and deep-voiced. And on Hercules, he did a good job playing a hero who was physically superhuman but fundamentally gentle, moral, and compassionate, as well as having a good sense of humor.
 
I find that astonishing. I think Welling was badly miscast. There were moments in later seasons where, if I was in a generous mood, I could almost see him as a marginally plausible proto-Superman, but most of the time I was very unimpressed.

I think part of the issue is that you seem to be going almost exclusively by appearance, whereas to me, the vocal performance is also very important. Welling's constant dull mumbling got on my nerves. There were occasions when he gave a more convincing performance, so maybe the writing and directing was more at fault, but I just never liked him much. He's by far my least favorite live-action Clark Kent.




I'd say "slightly differently." There was virtually no difference in his vocal performance, and Cain has a rather distinctive voice and a rather Shatnerian, pause-filled rhythm, so I never found it credible that people couldn't easily recognize that Clark and Superman had the same voice. I'll grant that his Superman was a bit more formal and authoritative than his Clark, not as laid-back, but the voice was so much the same that it outweighed that for me. I never found Cain as convincing as Superman as he was as Clark -- which isn't surprising, since the first-season producers wanted to minimize Superman's presence and so they cast him to be Clark first and foremost. (Which is probably why they picked Cain over his runner-up, Kevin Sorbo. I think Sorbo would've made a much more convincing Superman, though I don't know how effective his Clark would've been.)




As James said in the pilot, that nickname was reserved for his mother and "the big guy." Olsen wanted to get out from his "boy sidekick" image and establish himself as his own man, so he moved to National City and started going by James, but he still let his mother and Superman call him Jimmy because of their long-standing relationships. That's hardly implausible.



But as I tried to explain, it fits well with the intent behind this version of the character, which is that he's not the boy sidekick anymore, that a decade has passed and he's outgrown everyone's image of who Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen should be and is trying to make a name for himself beyond that preconception. So having him now be taller than Superman illustrates that "outgrowing" very nicely. He's not supposed to be the same as the Jimmy we're used to. That's the entire point.




Well, I'm not sure that's even fair. Some men -- myself included, to an extent -- just naturally have pale skin and very dark hair so that, no matter how clean-shaven they are, they still have a bit of shadow visible on the chin. And modern HD cameras would show that more clearly, so it'd be harder to hide. So frankly I think you're being pretty damn insulting by assuming that any man with even a trace of stubble visible must be slovenly and unwashed. I mean, what, are you posting from 1954? Standards have changed. These days, a bit of stubble is considered perfectly acceptable for a well-groomed man, even desirable and fashionable.

Ok, first things first. I'm not posting from 1954, I'm not watching with the sound off and I'm not able to smell anything over the Tv. Pretty sure that is the silly question quota reached for one subject.

I partly agree with your first point, I'm not going exclusively on appearance but it is pretty darn important. If I'm not seeing Superman, I'm having a very hard time believing in someone as Superman. When I look at Hoechlin, I don't see Superman, I see a young guy with black hair in a Superman costume.
I didn't find his performance convincing, he lacked the authority and confidence that this Superman should have had.

I also partly agree with your point about Dean Cain and his portrayal. I keep mentioning the pilot episode because there was such a huge difference between his Superman in the pilot and the rest of the series, but the pilot episode aside he was a far better Ck than he was Superman, which as you say fitted what the producers wanted. Clark was the real person, Superman was the disguise.

As for the Jimmy/James thing, I really don't need an explanation, I get it. I'm fine with this more mature and confident Jimmy and it does make a nice change for the character.
I'm not fine with him cutting a more impressive physical presence than Superman. I don't think I ever will be. That's just me, in my mind Superman should be the focal point. He's Superman, he shouldn't have Jimmy/James Olsen tower over him. If Olsen has grown up and progressed so much over the last 12 years, are we saying Superman hasn't ?

The last part, personal preference again. I started my original post by acknowledging I was going against the grain but the stubble thing bothers me. It's not my Superman, it's not what I want to see.
I'm well aware of changing times and modern fashion, even if I don't keep up with it but I'd rather Superman appeared clean cut.
 
Ok, first things first. I'm not posting from 1954, I'm not watching with the sound off and I'm not able to smell anything over the Tv.

Then stop acting like you are. You're being very petty and condescending by accusing someone of being unsanitary just because his chin isn't as smooth as a baby's bottom. As someone who's pale-skinned and dark-haired enough to be a bit stubbly-looking myself at the best of times, I'm entitled to protest.


I'm not fine with him cutting a more impressive physical presence than Superman. I don't think I ever will be. That's just me, in my mind Superman should be the focal point. He's Superman, he shouldn't have Jimmy/James Olsen tower over him. If Olsen has grown up and progressed so much over the last 12 years, are we saying Superman hasn't ?

In a way, yes, that's part of the point. Superman is a constant, and James had grown and changed so that he no longer fit in the same subordinate role relative to Superman.

The more important factor, though, is that this isn't Superman's show, it's Supergirl's. Kara is the lead, James is a secondary lead, and Superman is just a guest star. Mehcad Brooks was cast in relation to who James Olsen needed to be for this show, in relation to Kara and in relation to himself. He was cast as a character who had moved on from Superman and was no longer defined strictly in relation to Superman. And when they then cast for Superman a year or so later, they also cast him first and foremost in relation to Kara, because it's her show. And since they were casting an actor rather than a model, they couldn't be superficially fixated on appearance alone. They had to prioritize talent, personality, and chemistry with other actors over looks alone.
 
Then stop acting like you are. You're being very petty and condescending by accusing someone of being unsanitary just because his chin isn't as smooth as a baby's bottom. As someone who's pale-skinned and dark-haired enough to be a bit stubbly-looking myself at the best of times, I'm entitled to protest.




In a way, yes, that's part of the point. Superman is a constant, and James had grown and changed so that he no longer fit in the same subordinate role relative to Superman.

The more important factor, though, is that this isn't Superman's show, it's Supergirl's. Kara is the lead, James is a secondary lead, and Superman is just a guest star. Mehcad Brooks was cast in relation to who James Olsen needed to be for this show, in relation to Kara and in relation to himself. He was cast as a character who had moved on from Superman and was no longer defined strictly in relation to Superman. And when they then cast for Superman a year or so later, they also cast him first and foremost in relation to Kara, because it's her show. And since they were casting an actor rather than a model, they couldn't be superficially fixated on appearance alone. They had to prioritize talent, personality, and chemistry with other actors over looks alone.

Ok. I'm leaving this here. We're going round in circles. Although I find it amusing you accusing anyone of being condescending given some of your responses.

I'm not asking for a model, I'm asking for someone who looks like Superman. Is that really such a huge ask for such an iconic character.
That's not superficial. It's common sense.

I thought it was a bad choice to cast Hoechlin as Superman and I don't think he done a good job as the character.

Mellisa Benoist on the other hand is as close to perfect as can be as Supergirl.
 
I'm not asking for a model, I'm asking for someone who looks like Superman.

You really don't see the contradiction in that statement? You take all my analogies so literally that you completely miss the point. I'll spell it out for you. If you are casting a model, then appearance is the only factor you need to consider. If you are casting an actor, it is not, because you also need to consider acting talent, personality, and chemistry with the other actors. Therefore, it is often not possible to get someone who looks exactly like the role you're casting for and also meets all the other parameters. That's why movie Wolverine is a foot too tall. That's why we've never had a natural redhead play Mary Jane Watson or Jean Grey (or Jimmy Olsen, for that matter). That's why all three screen Barry Allens have been brown-haired instead of blond. It's actually extremely common for actors in comic-book adaptations to look different from their characters in the source material, because the actor who gives the best performance and has the best chemistry with other actors is not necessarily going to be the one who looks most like the original character.
 
Ok. I'm leaving this here. We're going round in circles. Although I find it amusing you accusing anyone of being condescending given some of your responses.

I'm not asking for a model, I'm asking for someone who looks like Superman. Is that really such a huge ask for such an iconic character.
That's not superficial. It's common sense.

[SPIKE VOICE]Oh bloody hell![/SPIKE VOICE]

[MAL VOICE]My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.[/MAL VOICE]

@Christopher It's useless to try and talk sense to some people.
 
[SPIKE VOICE]Oh bloody hell![/SPIKE VOICE]

[MAL VOICE]My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.[/MAL VOICE]



@Christopher It's useless to try and talk sense to some people.

Oh hello.

I see you are of the same opinion as Christopher. That's fine. It's an opinion. Mines is different. Where you see him talking sense I see him putting forward an argument I don't agree with.

Some people huh ?
 
If I'm not seeing Superman, I'm having a very hard time believing in someone as Superman.

You would imagine the idea of bad casting would dawn on some, but perhaps something else prevents the ability to recognize such a poor choice like Hoechlin.


When I look at Hoechlin, I don't see Superman, I see a young guy with black hair in a Superman costume.
I didn't find his performance convincing, he lacked the authority and confidence that this Superman should have had.

..and you're not going to see him with any sort of presence that includes confidence and authority, since that would be considered stepping on Supergirl's boots. Notice how that was not a problem with three heroes asserting themselves while together in Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice.


I'm not fine with him cutting a more impressive physical presence than Superman. I don't think I ever will be. That's just me, in my mind Superman should be the focal point.

"He's Superman, he shouldn't have Jimmy/James Olsen tower over him. If Olsen has grown up and progressed so much over the last 12 years, are we saying Superman hasn't ?"

Its not just you; in nearly every adaptation of Superman--from animation to live action, rarely do you see any other hero or supporting character tower over him. "Larger than Life" is not just a reference to his overall character and effect, but the idea that he does not look like the average guy on the street, or underdeveloped. He's supposed to be visually impressive among any group of people.

I'm asking for someone who looks like Superman. Is that really such a huge ask for such an iconic character.

No, it is not such as huge ask. There's a reason Tim Burton received universal criticism from trying to stick Nicholas Cage in his thankfully aborted Superman film. There's a reason Dolph Lundgren & Thomas Jane's Punisher, Matt Salinger's Captain America, Ryan Reynold's Green Lantern, & Clooney's Batman were all considered everything from wrongheaded to disastrous: actors not capturing any part of the source material--not in character, delivery and appearance.

Only honest minds will see the difference between the way Superman should look, and some odd casting based on....what?
 
George Clooney was the wrong choice to play Batman because he intentionally took a crap on the character. If he'd actually treated the role seriously, casting him wouldn't have been a problem.
 
George Clooney was the wrong choice to play Batman because he intentionally took a crap on the character. If he'd actually treated the role seriously, casting him wouldn't have been a problem.

I think Clooney did a good job with what he was given; the problem was with the writing and directing. He could potentially have been a superb Batman. He certainly looked the part better than Keaton or Kilmer. (Although I'm a bit biased, since his father Nick was a friend of my father's, not to mention my favorite local-TV news anchor when I was growing up.)
 
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