Super Nova that destroyed Romulus

[Nerys Myk]

the writers have nothing but contempt for logic and science.

So after galaxy-destroying supernovas, "Red Matter" creating black holes which can also be used as wormholes through time, a Space Octopus and a starship with only one nacelle, it takes this concept for you to make that statement?

Okay, meanwhile leading zeroes rape my childhood...

Since a black hole is a a component of a wormhole I dont see a problem with that. And the idea of a wormhole being used for time travel isn't unheard of.

 

[SG-17]

In fact it has been heard of in almost every sci-fi series with wormholes.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, this convrsation is going way over my head so I'm just going to accuse everyone of raping my childhood and be done with it.

 

[M'Sharak]

Well, this convrsation is going way over my head so I'm just going to accuse everyone of raping my childhood and be done with it.

I don't know -- there was black hole time travel in TOS, too, only in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" it was called a "black star". (The term "black hole" is held to have been coined by physicist John Wheeler, but not until later that same year -- "wormhole" was also one of his, coined ten years earlier.)

 

[OneBuckFilms]

the writers have nothing but contempt for logic and science.

So after galaxy-destroying supernovas, "Red Matter" creating black holes which can also be used as wormholes through time, a Space Octopus and a starship with only one nacelle, it takes this concept for you to make that statement?

Okay, meanwhile leading zeroes rape my childhood...

Since a black hole is a a component of a wormhole I dont see a problem with that. And the idea of a wormhole being used for time travel isn't unheard of.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture portrays a Black Hole as providing a gateway to another location.

Since Time and Space are two components of the same thing in physics, it stands to reason that a Wormhole stable enough to form in or near a Singularity could travel through Time as well as Space rather easily.

 

[JarodRussell]

In science fiction, there is a difference between extrapolating from stuff we know today (for example warp drive, beaming, energy shields, cloaking device, worm holes), making it possible by for example ignoring that it would eat infinite amounts of energy or by introducing a new particle that would make it work (like a graviton for anti gravity drives), and between simply totally fucking up everything by taking two well known phenomena (in this case a black hole and a supernova), stating that a supernova threatens an entire galaxy (which is simply not true and will under no circumstance EVER be true) and then use the black hole to friggin' vacu suck the shockwave of the explosion!!! Or if you forget about the speed of light like in Generations, when Picard with his own eyes sees the sun going dark immediately after Soran fired his rocked. That has been, is and always will be simply the result of horrible writing and research. It's science fiction, not fantasy.

Characters and plot devices are grounded in real world physics, not MAGIC, and not THE FORCE.


The Genesis Device is wonderful science fiction. Red Matter, a substance that creates black holes, is, too.

But drilling a hole into magma with a laser is not. Using a black hole to eat up a supernova is not. That's stupid.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'll give you the drill. But why is the black hole/supernova thing stupid? Some black holes are the remnants of a supernova. I would think a blackhole in the vicintity of a supernova would "eat up" the supernova. Perhaps not as quickly as seen in the movie though. This black hole seem to be feeding on its companion star.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I'll give you the drill. But why is the black hole/supernova thing stupid? Some black holes are the remnants of a supernova. I would think a blackhole in the vicintity of a supernova would "eat up" the supernova. Perhaps not as quickly as seen in the movie though. This black hole seem to be feeding on its companion star.

As far as real physics goes, it remains a gray area at best. Whether gravity waves actually exist and travel at c, remains in dispute, but supernova remnants are not consumed when black holes result from a SN - but "red matter singularities" can have artistic license, IMO.

I don't mind pushing the edge, but just wish this film was not so outright hostile to science and reason, and so fawning on rule of passion, violence and militarism.

 

[T'Girl]

But drilling a hole into magma with a laser is not. Using a black hole to eat up a supernova is not. That's stupid.

That's something I hadn't thought of. Drilling through the rocky mantle with a cutting beam, okay. But drill through the molten liquid magma? Once the beam was cut off wouldn't the magma just fill back in, pretty quick. It would be like using a power drill on a pool of water, pull the drill bit out and look at the nice hole, oh wait, hole's gone now.

Why not just put the red matter directly on to the surface?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'll give you the drill. But why is the black hole/supernova thing stupid? Some black holes are the remnants of a supernova. I would think a blackhole in the vicintity of a supernova would "eat up" the supernova. Perhaps not as quickly as seen in the movie though. This black hole seem to be feeding on its companion star.

As far as real physics goes, it remains a gray area at best. Whether gravity waves actually exist and travel at c, remains in dispute, but supernova remnants are not consumed when black holes result from a SN - but "red matter singularities" can have artistic license, IMO.

I don't mind pushing the edge, but just wish this film was not so outright hostile to science and reason, and so fawning on rule of passion, violence and militarism.

So you object to the military solution to the films conflict and would have prefered one based on science and reason?

 

[BurntSynapse]

I...wish this film was not so outright hostile to science and reason, and so fawning on rule of passion, violence and militarism.

So you object to the military solution to the films conflict and would have prefered one based on science and reason?

I would say if readers just had this question and a yes or no answer regarding my preferred resolution to the film's main conflict, (Kirk vs. Nero) they might miss the most important thing about that conflict: it's context of a story relying too heavily on contradictory and magical events. Portrayals of Hogwart's seem more scientifically justifiable.

I would say that after asking us to believe that not only Nero was completely mad, he was sometimes written to have super powers like single-handedly taking on entire planets and fleets of Klingon battlecruisers with a mining ship, but also he is written as unable to simply stay out of the path of the burning, sublight wreckage of the Kelvin. The Narada crew is also apparently insane as no group or single member of the Narada's crew ever relieves their skipper, even well into their 3rd decade after his obvious homicidal insanity - starting with the demented murder of Robau.

If viewers can successfully suspend disbelief during 97 minutes through hundreds of unreasonable (and damaging) portrayals and contradictions, endorsing Kirk's final heroic act (the murder of an entire crew because of one man's mental illness) may be easy.

To me, that acceptance is a cognitive high-jump, a running leap of faith far beyond the range of my stubby yet stable logical legs.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I...wish this film was not so outright hostile to science and reason, and so fawning on rule of passion, violence and militarism.

So you object to the military solution to the films conflict and would have prefered one based on science and reason?

I would say if readers just had this question and a yes or no answer regarding my preferred resolution to the film's main conflict, (Kirk vs. Nero) they might miss the most important thing about that conflict: it's context of a story relying too heavily on contradictory and magical events. Portrayals of Hogwart's seem more scientifically justifiable.

I would say that after asking us to believe that not only Nero was completely mad, he was sometimes written to have super powers like single-handedly taking on entire planets and fleets of Klingon battlecruisers with a mining ship, but also he is written as unable to simply stay out of the path of the burning, sublight wreckage of the Kelvin. The Narada crew is also apparently insane as no group or single member of the Narada's crew ever relieves their skipper, even well into their 3rd decade after his obvious homicidal insanity - starting with the demented murder of Robau.

If viewers can successfully suspend disbelief during 97 minutes through hundreds of unreasonable (and damaging) portrayals and contradictions, endorsing Kirk's final heroic act (the murder of an entire crew because of one man's mental illness) may be easy.

To me, that acceptance is a cognitive high-jump, a running leap of faith far beyond the range of my stubby yet stable logical legs.

Nero was written as having a ship with superior technology that enabled him to destroy planets and fleets. It was a heavily armed mining ship from martial culture from over 100 years in the future.

Does Kirk ever think about the poor crews who follow madmen (Khan, Chang, Kruge) He destroys those ships with all hands aboard. Those just following orders go down with the ships.

We've no idea if some one might have challenged Nero in those two plus decades. (Though they were in prison for those two plus decades if you count behind the sceens material) Not important to the plot any way. Blind loyalty is part of the Romulan culture IIRC.

So what are these contradictions?

 

[BurntSynapse]

Nero was written as having a ship with superior technology that enabled him to destroy planets and fleets.

Then why was he suddenly helpless against the Kelvin wreckage during the baby Jim conversation?

It was a heavily armed mining ship from martial culture from over 100 years in the future.

Is there any analog to this in our understanding of mining equipment, even when located in actual hot zones like Iraq, or Venezuela, over similar time periods, and when the situational pressure would provide stronger urgency than mere cultural influence toward weaponizing resource gathering equipment? AFAIK, this has never, ever occurred to any large resource gathering equipment - but if anyone has an example(s), I'd be interested to learn of them and consider this plot element less egregious.

Does Kirk ever think about the poor crews who follow madmen (Khan, Chang, Kruge) He destroys those ships with all hands aboard.

I don't think Kirk destroyed Khan's ship, although Khan was arguably mad and could have been written better. In my weak recollections, neither Chang nor Kruge seemed clinically insane nor homocidally obsessed. As I recall (badly) they both had some defensive pretext with a grain of believability, but that seems a pretty subjective judgment on my part.

Those just following orders go down with the ships.

Very true.

We've no idea if some one might have challenged Nero in those two plus decades.

Exactly my point. We are shown so much improper behavior yet so little reasonable actions by sensible characters acting in a way with which we can identify that it makes suspension of disbelief a real task for the alert viewer who also wants to get "in" the film.

They were in prison for those two plus decades if you count behind the sceens materia

Who would possibly choose 23 years on Klingon death prison as a good spot to prepare for a war and calculate quantum cosmological time-travel equations?

So what are these contradictions?

Those listed herein, and for others, referring you to StructuredDream is about the best I can offer, but I got an email today that the comments function was not working.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nero was written as having a ship with superior technology that enabled him to destroy planets and fleets.

Then why was he suddenly helpless against the Kelvin wreckage during the baby Jim conversation?

Because Kirk did the unexpected and rammed a starship down his gullet.

It was a heavily armed mining ship from martial culture from over 100 years in the future.

Is there any analog to this in our understanding of mining equipment, even when located in actual hot zones like Iraq, or Venezuela, over similar time periods, and when the situational pressure would provide stronger urgency than mere cultural influence toward weaponizing resource gathering equipment? AFAIK, this has never, ever occurred to any large resource gathering equipment - but if anyone has an example(s), I'd be interested to learn of them and consider this plot element less egregious.

Most terrestrial mines arent mobile. The Narada would be armed to protect its self against pirates and other aggressors wishing to steal its "cargo" not unlike seagoing ships of past centuies.

I don't think Kirk destroyed Khan's ship, although Khan was arguably mad and could have been written better. In my weak recollections, neither Chang nor Kruge seemed clinically insane nor homocidally obsessed. As I recall (badly) they both had some defensive pretext with a grain of believability, but that seems a pretty subjective judgment on my part.

Since the Reliant was on the ropes I'm sure Kirk would have, if Khan hadn't commited suicide. Chang and Kruge were not mad in the Khan sense, but not the most stable of people. Kruge was pretty pissed his men died when Kirk destroyed the Enterprise with them on board.

Exactly my point. We are shown so much improper behavior yet so little reasonable actions by sensible characters acting in a way with which we can identify that it makes suspension of disbelief a real task for the alert viewer who also wants to get "in" the film.

It seemed to work for most people, no exhaustive back story needed. Those that do need it can supply their own as Trek fans have done for decades.

They were in prison for those two plus decades if you count behind the sceens materia

Who would possibly choose 23 years on Klingon death prison as a good spot to prepare for a war and calculate quantum cosmological time-travel equations?

I don't think someone in Nero's postion can choses the time and place to prep and calculate his revenge.

So what are these contradictions?

Those listed herein, and for others, referring you to StructuredDream is about the best I can offer, but I got an email today that the comments function was not working.

Tried to read it but I find your prose style to be tedious and pretentious in large doses. Sorry.