Super 14 Fans?
- Thread starter Dingo
- Start date
I'm not, but I know there are a few around. I'm a rugby league man myself.
He's talking about the Experimental Law Variations that the IRB have been trying out in recent years. The broad objective of the ELVs is to improve the product. Recently the IRB got its members together to discuss the ELV and this is what they came up with:
ELVs recommended for adoption into law
- Assistant referees allowed.
- Kicking directly into touch from ball played back into 22 brings no gain in ground.
- Quick lineout throw can go backwards.
- Player in opposition to side throwing in to be two metres away from lineout and touchline.
- Pre-gripping of lineout jumpers allowed.
- Lifting in the lineout allowed.
- Receiver must be two metres away from lineout.
- Five-metre offside line at scrum.
- Scrum half offside line at scrum.
- Corner posts no longer touch in goal.
ELVs not recommended for adoption into law
- Head and shoulder not to be lower than hips in the maul.
- Pulling down maul allowed.
- Each team free to determine lineout numbers.
ELVs under review
- Sanctions and free-kicks.
- Tackle/ruck infringements.
What Kpnuts is talking specifically about is the second from the bottom. Part of the ELVs was that certain infrigments that would have got a "long-arm penalty" (called because the ref holds his arm straight up) were reduced to a "short-arm penalty" (just raises his arm as if he is taking an oath). There are some important differences between short and long arm penalties, with a short arm you can't take a penalty shot for goal and with a long arm when you kick for touch you get the throw in from the line out from where the ball goes out regardless of your kicking position on the field. It is one of the most controversal rule changes, along with the collapsing maul (though the latter is more of a safety issue).
As for the Super 14s, I'm a big fan and a supporter of the ACT Brumbies.
Any of the top 9 teams at this moment can make the top 4. The Crusaders, who are ninth at the moment have 3 of their 4 remaining games against the 3 lowest ranked teams so they could make it, even grab a home semi final if results go their way. My view is that the semis will be 3 NZ/1 SA or 2 NZ/2 SA, I highly doubt that any of the Australian teams will make it. The Reds are long gone, the Tahs aren't playing well enough, the Force have a tough run and are probably a win lite of making it. The Brumbies have injuries to key players (including the in form Australian fullback in the comp and their flyhalf) and a very tough run.
Possible finalists, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders and Bulls.
Well, my tipping this year has me at 45/64, even with my "always tip Brumbies" rule so that's close to 75%, so three of my picks should be right...maybe.
ELVs recommended for adoption into law
- Assistant referees allowed.
- Kicking directly into touch from ball played back into 22 brings no gain in ground.
- Quick lineout throw can go backwards.
- Player in opposition to side throwing in to be two metres away from lineout and touchline.
- Pre-gripping of lineout jumpers allowed.
- Lifting in the lineout allowed.
- Receiver must be two metres away from lineout.
- Five-metre offside line at scrum.
- Scrum half offside line at scrum.
- Corner posts no longer touch in goal.
ELVs not recommended for adoption into law
- Head and shoulder not to be lower than hips in the maul.
- Pulling down maul allowed.
- Each team free to determine lineout numbers.
ELVs under review
- Sanctions and free-kicks.
- Tackle/ruck infringements.
What Kpnuts is talking specifically about is the second from the bottom. Part of the ELVs was that certain infrigments that would have got a "long-arm penalty" (called because the ref holds his arm straight up) were reduced to a "short-arm penalty" (just raises his arm as if he is taking an oath). There are some important differences between short and long arm penalties, with a short arm you can't take a penalty shot for goal and with a long arm when you kick for touch you get the throw in from the line out from where the ball goes out regardless of your kicking position on the field. It is one of the most controversal rule changes, along with the collapsing maul (though the latter is more of a safety issue).
As for the Super 14s, I'm a big fan and a supporter of the ACT Brumbies.
Any of the top 9 teams at this moment can make the top 4. The Crusaders, who are ninth at the moment have 3 of their 4 remaining games against the 3 lowest ranked teams so they could make it, even grab a home semi final if results go their way. My view is that the semis will be 3 NZ/1 SA or 2 NZ/2 SA, I highly doubt that any of the Australian teams will make it. The Reds are long gone, the Tahs aren't playing well enough, the Force have a tough run and are probably a win lite of making it. The Brumbies have injuries to key players (including the in form Australian fullback in the comp and their flyhalf) and a very tough run.
Possible finalists, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders and Bulls.
Well, my tipping this year has me at 45/64, even with my "always tip Brumbies" rule so that's close to 75%, so three of my picks should be right...maybe.
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Well my finalists tips look okay, 3 out of the four of them are still in the top four.
Terrible round of tipping on my behalf. I tipped two upsets, Brumbies and Cheetahs (though I really only hoped for the first and genuinely believed in the second) and got the Cheetahs but I got caught out by the upset wins by the Stormers and Reds, so I only got 3 out of 6 this weekend. Additional winners out of this weekend are the Sharks and Tahs, who both had the bye. They were looking at falling 3 spots on the ladder but in the end only drop down one spot, not bad for the Sharks since they get to stay in the top 4 going into next week.
If only the Brumbies had won...the results would have really went their way with pretty much all of the right teams losing.
Terrible round of tipping on my behalf. I tipped two upsets, Brumbies and Cheetahs (though I really only hoped for the first and genuinely believed in the second) and got the Cheetahs but I got caught out by the upset wins by the Stormers and Reds, so I only got 3 out of 6 this weekend. Additional winners out of this weekend are the Sharks and Tahs, who both had the bye. They were looking at falling 3 spots on the ladder but in the end only drop down one spot, not bad for the Sharks since they get to stay in the top 4 going into next week.
If only the Brumbies had won...the results would have really went their way with pretty much all of the right teams losing.
Me for the win! All four right.
Finalists
Bulls
Chiefs
Hurricanes
Crusaders
Semi:
Bulls v Crusaders
Chiefs v Hurricanes
Crusaders had a tough win against the Bulls during the normal rounds but that was in NZ. I expect that home ground advantage and the fact the Bulls are in good form that they will win.
Chiefs and Hurricanes met two weeks ago and both teams were in from and the Chiefs won, so they have the psychological advantage over the Canes.
So I predict it will be a Bulls v Chiefs final, they met 4 or 5 weeks ago and the Bulls just pipped the Chiefs in SA. The final would also be in SA so the Chiefs would have the harder task in winning the game.
So if all goes to plan then I think the Bulls will win their second Super rugby trophy.
Complete right again. I'm glad I didn't say a margin before because I would have been way off, the Bulls won 61-17. I thought it would be a lot closer then that. That's the biggest final's margin taking that title from the fantastic Brumbies 30 point hiding to against the Sharks in 2002 (36-6). It is also just short of the most points in a final, that title is held by the Brumbies v Crusaders 2004 final, 47-38.
Now its test rugby season for use in the southern hemisphere. The British and Irish Lions have started their tour of South Africa, Australia starts its pre-Tri-nations games with a Barbarians match and then Italy and France and NZ is also has some test matches against Italy and France. Of those pre-Tri-nations series the Lions tour is the most interesting. Then its on to arguably the best internation competition in the world (bar the world cup), the Tri-nations.
Now its test rugby season for use in the southern hemisphere. The British and Irish Lions have started their tour of South Africa, Australia starts its pre-Tri-nations games with a Barbarians match and then Italy and France and NZ is also has some test matches against Italy and France. Of those pre-Tri-nations series the Lions tour is the most interesting. Then its on to arguably the best internation competition in the world (bar the world cup), the Tri-nations.
I'm afraid that would be the Six Nations, not the tiresome and repetitive bore that is the Tri Nations. Playing the same two teams three times over a couple of months? No wonder attendance figures are at an all time low
That's a laugh! I hear doctors use tapes of Six nation games to cure insomnia. We have decided on quality over quantity in our competition.
The Tri nations, where three teams playing each other 42 times each and nobody gives a flying f*** who wins anyway because people are so sick to death of the same repetitive nonsense year in year out. Again, no wonder the crowds are getting less and less and Sanzar want to change the rules to suit them to try and compensate.
At least it's not as bad as the basketball Super 14, where defense is non-existant, made worse by Aussie O'Neill's ridiculous ELVs. Aren't they making it the Super 15 soon? Adding a pacific islander team or an Argentinean team? Nope, another Aussie one. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
You want to enjoy rugby union? Watch the Six Nations and the Heineken Cup, the best international and club competitions in the world.
At least it's not as bad as the basketball Super 14, where defense is non-existant, made worse by Aussie O'Neill's ridiculous ELVs. Aren't they making it the Super 15 soon? Adding a pacific islander team or an Argentinean team? Nope, another Aussie one. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
You want to enjoy rugby union? Watch the Six Nations and the Heineken Cup, the best international and club competitions in the world.
oh please! The ELVs were santioned by the IRB and O'Neil had nothing to do with their development. While I don't agree with everything that comes out of his mouth he is in a much smaller and more competitive footy market so I can't blame him for been behind rules that were designed to make the sport more entertaining. You can bag the rules if you want but you're going to have to get use to them because 10 of the ELVs were passed into law a month or so ago.As for the crowds, the average attendence varies partly due to the length of the series in the last four years. We've gone 6 games, 9 games, 6 games, 9 games. If you compare the series with the same length (so 2008 and 2006, 2007 and 2005) you'll see that the latter years in each pair have a higher total and average.
I find it best to enjoy rugby union by avoiding the borefest that is the Six nations. I do admit the northern hemisphere does have some okay club comps, but that's ususally because they are stacked with players from the southern hemisphere. Not that there is anything wrong with that, you guys have the capacity to do that and it does only help the game as players from the Pacific islands and Argentina can compete in reasonable comps.
As for the future Super 15s, the 15th team will be based in Australia. Where they haven't decided. I think it is really going to stretch the player depth in Australia, maybe they'll relax the player elligibility rules to aid the team.
The last thing I'll say is that it isn't a coincidence that the tri-nations sides have won 5 of the 6 world cups.
Indeed, the ELV's were sanctioned by the IRB... with O'Neill making threats about breakaways if they aren't adopted, and spreading propaganda at every possible opportunity. Australia don't have a forward pack, can't scrummage and can't maul, so he saw it as the perfect opportunity to change the game to suit the Aussies, especially since union is trying desparately hard to compete with other sports Down Under. So yes, O'Neill was their biggest supporter and used every ounce of his media whoring to get them implemented. Thankfully common sense prevailed and the majority of them were dumped.
My problem with O'Neill is that he is trying to change the game in Australia, where rugby union is to a certain extent struggling, without caring about the global game as a whole. Why should every team from English U11's to Italian university teams, including the northern hemisphere as a whole, where rugby has never been healthier, change the way they play the sport just to suit his wishes. The ELV's that WERE accepted into law are all fine, and an improvement. But the maul and free kick ones were a total joke and were exposed as such.
Why do you think southern hemisphere's best players come north. Ok I'm not naive enough to ignore the money aspect, but the majority come up here because they want to play in the best club competition in the world, the Heineken Cup. The Six Nations, has far more history and rivalry than the Super 14, and playing each team once a year, home and away makes each fixture special, unlike in the 3N. SANZAR missed a golden opportunity to mix it up and make things more interesting when they denied Argentina entry.
And as for your final point, I'm not debating the quality of the southern hemisphere sides. I know they are class acts, particularly now compared to the Northern hemisphere teams. But it's swings and roundabouts, always changing, sometimes South Africa can be godawful, sometimes Australia etc... but yes it's fact that the SH teams have a better record at the world cup - However, I believe that if more All Blacks's had played in the Guinness Premiership before 2007, they would have been a more complete team and known how to win the 2007 quarter final
My point was always about competitions and where (in my opinion) the best place to play and watch rugby is.
My problem with O'Neill is that he is trying to change the game in Australia, where rugby union is to a certain extent struggling, without caring about the global game as a whole. Why should every team from English U11's to Italian university teams, including the northern hemisphere as a whole, where rugby has never been healthier, change the way they play the sport just to suit his wishes. The ELV's that WERE accepted into law are all fine, and an improvement. But the maul and free kick ones were a total joke and were exposed as such.
Why do you think southern hemisphere's best players come north. Ok I'm not naive enough to ignore the money aspect, but the majority come up here because they want to play in the best club competition in the world, the Heineken Cup. The Six Nations, has far more history and rivalry than the Super 14, and playing each team once a year, home and away makes each fixture special, unlike in the 3N. SANZAR missed a golden opportunity to mix it up and make things more interesting when they denied Argentina entry.
And as for your final point, I'm not debating the quality of the southern hemisphere sides. I know they are class acts, particularly now compared to the Northern hemisphere teams. But it's swings and roundabouts, always changing, sometimes South Africa can be godawful, sometimes Australia etc... but yes it's fact that the SH teams have a better record at the world cup - However, I believe that if more All Blacks's had played in the Guinness Premiership before 2007, they would have been a more complete team and known how to win the 2007 quarter final
My point was always about competitions and where (in my opinion) the best place to play and watch rugby is.
They probably would have won it if they asked the officials before the match if they knew what a forward pass was.
On a serious note I think Henry made a mistake with his rotation policy and certain selections. Their diabolically easy walk to the finals was a bit of a joke and wouldn't have helped. Neither did their injuries in the game against France, Carter and Kelleher off at basically the same time, then that lost their backup fly-half, Evans 15 minutes later! Luck was definitely not on their side on that day.
Short of either of us getting a lobotomy I don't think we'll ever agree on that point.
