Sulu in Wrath Of Khan
- Thread starter captainjellico
- Start date
Ok, but I still don’t think that headed warp-speed into accusing a well-known and beloved Trek writer/producer/director of racism just because of your inability to accept reasonable in-universe explanations is a responsible thing to do.
I don’t find that “rational”
Nothing like having a totally innocent and unimportant topic totally derailed by absolute crapola. Ugh.
Well, Mr. Sulu probably was the 1st officer. Kirk wasn't in charge, Spock was Captain. Someone has to be first officer, and in accordance with what first officers do in TOS like Spock, Sulu was still at the Helm. But since it was a training cruise, he let the cadets work the ship.
As for why he was still on the Enterprise, who knows, it hasn't been written why. In the novelization, early scripts, he's either waiting for a command, or is already assigned to the Excelsior. So he was there for 3 weeks probably as a favor to the Admiral to help out. But Khan happens, so Styles was assigned the Excelsior gig maybe only on her shakedown cruise. Do keep in mind, not much time passes from ST 2 through 5, at most a year. Then it jumps 6 years to 93 in ST 6.
From what we can infer form the opening, saying After three years I've concluded my first assignment as master of this vessel, Sulu was captain of the Excelsior in 2290, So he either had another command for 4 years, or after the Genesis kerfuffle he was blacklisted for abit, and stayed with Kirk for the 4 years.
As for why he was still on the Enterprise, who knows, it hasn't been written why. In the novelization, early scripts, he's either waiting for a command, or is already assigned to the Excelsior. So he was there for 3 weeks probably as a favor to the Admiral to help out. But Khan happens, so Styles was assigned the Excelsior gig maybe only on her shakedown cruise. Do keep in mind, not much time passes from ST 2 through 5, at most a year. Then it jumps 6 years to 93 in ST 6.
From what we can infer form the opening, saying After three years I've concluded my first assignment as master of this vessel, Sulu was captain of the Excelsior in 2290, So he either had another command for 4 years, or after the Genesis kerfuffle he was blacklisted for abit, and stayed with Kirk for the 4 years.
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According to what? Why Sulu and not Uhura?
It would help me to understand your concerns if you could clarify why you don't find them rational rather than appearing to simply be dismissing them.
Because we've actually seen Sulu take command, I'm not aware of Uhura ever doing it. Although she was at the helm in one TOS ep (can't remember which).
But since according to PIC, we know Uhura does eventually attain command of a starship...she must have been in the command track at some point.
Saavik was undergoing Command training, part of which would be sitting watch on the bridge. If a situation arose where Saavik had difficulties then either she would surrender command to Sulu or Uhura and resume her station or one of the Commanders on the bridge would step in and take over.
I believe she was at the helm in "The Naked Time", "Court Martial", and one other episode.
In TAS' "The Lorelei Signal", she took command of the 1701, and led an all-female team to the planet surface to rescue The Big Three and another officer.
It's comparatively rare*, but non-command track personnel do occasionally get their own ship commands or become flag officers, so it is possible,But since according to PIC, we know Uhura does eventually attain command of a starship...she must have been in the command track at some point.
* They're probably much more common than depicted, it's just not the type of shows/films we're seeing. We're watching shows about the hero ships out exploring the frontier, while there are probably numerous specialized ships commanded by non-command division captains, like science vessels, medical vessels (like Beverly's ship), tugs, mobile docks, tenders, fuel tankers, mining ships, security patrol ships, cargo ships, etc. Not to mention space stations and shore facilities.
You've already been shown you were wrong about Sulu never taking command in TOS...
So, just to be clear, those same racist screenwriters who wanted to keep Sulu out of the captain's chair are also progressive feminists who wanted to give a prominent role to an independent by-the-book professional woman who advances based on her competence and intelligence?
Those same racist screenwriters who also originally scripted that Sulu would be taking command of the Excelsior in a few weeks time wanted to keep him out of the command chair?
The same director who did give Sulu his own command (as was originally intended) in his next Star Trek film wouldn't override that racism given the enormous amount of influence he had on the tone, production design, story, etc.? I mean, he made his movies into nautical themed or Holmesian whodunnit yarns with actual pots and pans and formal wraparound uniforms but he couldn't say "hey, let's put Sulu in the big chair"?
Or could it be, they wanted to juxtapose these old(er) mostly men and the theme of aging with a young woman (and to a lesser extent a young man in David) who had as prominent a role in the film as they did?
Could it be that Kirk expressed concern about cadets at the helm and was visibly nervous at a cadet piloting the Enterprise out of spacedock, so maybe having an experienced officer and a steady hand at the helm rather than barking out orders from the captain's chair is more important, especially since he's literally five feet away and the ranking officer if shit got real?
But no, let's just baselessly accuse people of racism, because that's not an ugly thing to just casually accuse someone of without evidence.
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^^^ This. All of this. All the likes.
I know there is stuff both in universe Star Trek as well as just real life to nitpick (or more charitably, to complain) about The Wrath of Khan. But it is really such a perfectly balanced movie and a big part of that is knowing exactly what to do with Saavik and how to bounce her off of Kirk and Spock.
BTW:
Memory Alpha:
Spock's Brain
This marks the third of five times that Sulu is seen in the captain's chair while temporarily in command. The first time happened in "Errand of Mercy", the second in "The Enterprise Incident". The last two occur in "The Lights of Zetar" and "The Savage Curtain".
I know there is stuff both in universe Star Trek as well as just real life to nitpick (or more charitably, to complain) about The Wrath of Khan. But it is really such a perfectly balanced movie and a big part of that is knowing exactly what to do with Saavik and how to bounce her off of Kirk and Spock.
BTW:
Memory Alpha:
Spock's Brain
This marks the third of five times that Sulu is seen in the captain's chair while temporarily in command. The first time happened in "Errand of Mercy", the second in "The Enterprise Incident". The last two occur in "The Lights of Zetar" and "The Savage Curtain".
Sulu was also left in command in "ARENA" when Kirk and Spock beamed down to Cestus III. During the fight with the Gorn ship, he made the judgment call to get out of orbit to protect the Enterprise. So really it was here that Sulu was first seen in command, not 'ERRAND OF MERCY". So at least 6 times during the show we see him in command.
Sulu was brought onto the training cruise as a favor to Kirk, since he said, "I don't think these kids can steer." Plus, Sulu was happy to do so, as he said, "Any chance to fly the Enterprise", or words to that effect.
Saavik was the one needing more time in the center seat because she needed more experience. And since this was originally a training cruise, Sulu taking command was not a necessity. And there was never a point where he needed to, since either Kirk or Spock or both were on the bridge each time Sulu was.
Dee1891, I'm honestly surprised you seem to have a problem with Saavik being in the center seat instead of Sulu, given how you have readily called out sexism over Janeway in posts where none existed. Saavik proved herself to be a capable and professional officer who was on the command track. I thought she did well, and took the extra step with her 'regulation' on no flag officer beaming down without an armed escort, showing clear loyalty. That bit was a nice character beat, and showed some growth from the rather boxed in by-the-book mentality.
Sulu was brought onto the training cruise as a favor to Kirk, since he said, "I don't think these kids can steer." Plus, Sulu was happy to do so, as he said, "Any chance to fly the Enterprise", or words to that effect.
Saavik was the one needing more time in the center seat because she needed more experience. And since this was originally a training cruise, Sulu taking command was not a necessity. And there was never a point where he needed to, since either Kirk or Spock or both were on the bridge each time Sulu was.
Dee1891, I'm honestly surprised you seem to have a problem with Saavik being in the center seat instead of Sulu, given how you have readily called out sexism over Janeway in posts where none existed. Saavik proved herself to be a capable and professional officer who was on the command track. I thought she did well, and took the extra step with her 'regulation' on no flag officer beaming down without an armed escort, showing clear loyalty. That bit was a nice character beat, and showed some growth from the rather boxed in by-the-book mentality.
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I know Kirk is meant to be teaching at the academy during the film, and Spock is in command of Enterprise now it's a training vessel for cadets, but are Uhura, Bones and Scotty still assigned to the ship or are they also teachers? Sulu mentions in the shuttle journey that he's happy for any excuse to come aboard, suggesting he's no longer assigned to the ship.
Who was in command when Spock went down to the transporter room to welcome Kirk and party back? The blond cadet is oddly in the command chair but Scotty’s right behind him. I always thought that the only reason Scotty would have been there was because he was in charge. Did he really need to be there in person just to give an engineering report when he could have been supervising repairs?
I was confused as to who you were referring to here but as Toddler also pointed out, the blond unnamed cadet who normally sits at the Engineering station throughout the rest of the movie is sitting in the captain's chair after Kirk and the away team beam up from the Genesis cave. Scotty's pose gives me the impression he's supervising while standing behind him.
While watching the Motion Picture the other day I noticed Sulu takes the Captain's seat at least twice. First when Decker is with Ilia, Kirk's chasing Spock during the spacewalk scene and once again when the Kirk, McCoy, Spock return from witnessing Decker getting 'absorbed' into V'ger.
