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Spoilers Suicide Squad - Grading & Discussion

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I think I'd be more worried about Suicide Squad's earnings if I cared if there was a sequel or not. I mean I enjoyed the movie, and maybe down the line wouldn't mind to see these characters brought together in this way again. But I think what this movie really was meant to do was to set up a lot of major players in the DCEU (I erroneously called it the DCCU earlier). If they want Captain Boomerang for the Flash film...they got him! We could bring Deadshot in and we already got backstory on him. Batman's Joker? We've already seen him. Any of these characters can show up again, and that's why I like the idea of Cinematic Universes.
 
It is a lot and it shows how the market is suffering due to new media content distribution models. With Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, Fire Sticks, Kodi boxes and other streams, the cinema is not the venture it used to be.

The three biggest US domestic box office films from 2012-2015

Jurassic World - 49% weekend drop off
The Force Awakens - 39% drop off
Age of Ultron - 59%
Hunger Games Mockingjay Pt 1 - 53%
Guardians of the Galaxy - 55%
The Winter Soldier - 57%
Catching Fire - 53%
Iron Man 3 - 58%
Frozen - 53%
The Avengers - 50%
The Dark Knight Rises - 61%
The Hunger Games - 62%

One goes below your 40% mark which is still "a lot".

Most of these big tent pole films and "biggest of the year" flicks are all franchises - their massive BO numbers driven by audience allegiance, nostalgia and built-in audiences. So you get hugely inflated first weeks, because the fan boys, the fans and the hangers-on pony up first week, pretty much all of the time. Once they have drained their collective wallets, the rest of the populous has a go. If it is a successful film, those fanboys/girls will have another go at the cinema. If its very successful the fans will go a second time too. If it's something that manages to reach out to a truly wide audience, then Gen-pop might consider putting down another £10/$15. But they are pretty damned rare.

You have to go back to Avatar to get a real "wow, that held" drop, losing only 1.8%... and it was never a film that had a HUGE week. It chugged along, merrily throughout the winter eating all the dollars.

If the production companies really want their films to do well they should learn to spread them out more. There is a glut of options at the cinema already and competition is fierce. But when you have STB, followed by Jason Bourne, followed by SS all under 2 weeks, it's of no surprise that some suffer. Planning your releases around summer/easter school holidays used work, but when 4 films vie for competition in a 2 week easter period, or 20 compete over summer, its becoming a failed economic strategy. Avatar, TFA, LOTR have all shown that you can do great business over January/Feb (as did Deadpool), which are generally thought to be dead months. Very shrewd of Disney to sew up those months with their endless SW releases from 2015 to infinity.

Hugo - did I mention I hated SS?
 
Maybe they made the Joker less abusive to HQ in order for women to like her more. Of course HQ is crazy, but she isn't stupid.
That, and I think they probably wanted people to sympathize with her desire to get back together with him. If they went all out and made him a total abusive prick, people would have been rooting for them to stay a part and for Harley to dump him. It might have hurt the Joker's characterization as a truly evil psychopath, but having it in the movie probably would have hurt Harley's story.
 
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The audience seemed to really dig HQ so maybe she's transcended her origin to some degree. I don't know if I care to see her more mistreated by the Joker myself.

So have any of these various "Chinese Cuts" of movies ever been made available? I'm kind of curious about some of them.
 
I don't think I would have wanted to see him downright abusive, but I was a little surprised how much they did have him seeming to truly love her. In most of the other versions it seemed like more of a one sided relationship with Harley wholeheartedly loving the Joker, while he just kind of tolerated her presence. Although judging by an Easter egg for Arkham City that I saw online, which I've never managed to find in my play throughs, they were at least having sex in that version.
 
That, and I think they probably wanted people to sympathize with her desire to get back together with him. If they went all out and made him a total abusive prick, people would have been rooting for them to stay a part and for Harley to dump him. It might have hurt the Joker's characterization as a truly evil psychopath, but having it in the movie probably would have hurt Harley's story.
See THIS is my problem with the film.

The fact that ANYONE is rooting for this relationship is, well, ridiculous. She is an unfortunate Domestic Violence victim trapped in a hyperstylised environment. So stylised in fact that most people have either decided to (a) ignore the violence subjected upon her, or (b) so entranced with the neon flicking lights and her shiny high-riding shorts that they missed it all together.

A woman is ensnared by the charms of an intelligent sociopathic man. He kidnaps her and subjects her to electro-shock therapy causing (presumed) mental damage. He then forces this damaged person to chose to self-harm for him, which she willingly does, giving him the opportunity to treat her like an fleshlight he can pass around to any subordinate he feels like. He indoctrinates her in his ways and ideals, damaging her to the point where all she cares for is his attention and his love. Her entire meaning in the film is to be rescued by her owner as she is regularly advertised as "property" of the Joker, by the clothing and accoutrements she wears. The thin BDSM hue to the relationship exacerbates the dynamic making her hypersexualised, an object to trade and fawn over - yes, especially you, audience, thanks to Ayers lascivious direction.

Every single step HQ takes in this film is as a victim of her abusers treatment towards her. What would have given some credence and weight to this tale would have been some contextualising of it and awareness from HQ of her environment and emotional state. But nothing is said. She is a damsel in distress (with a bat and a bit of a swing) waiting to be rescued by her white knight (ha), Joker, as he tries in his valiant way to whisk her away from the monstrous clutches of Amanda Waller. So not only have they removed any agency from her, or frankly any credence of humanity or character, they have tried to turn the story into a tragic love story where her abuser pines over his loss and affects multiple attempts to rescue her. Well done, you just made the villain a hero. And NOT in the sense the film was meant to be aiming for.

The closest the film gets to start discussing her abuse and her nature is when she shouts down El Diablo, telling him to "Own that shit" (i.e. his problems with violence in the past). At the very least this could have been a moment of reflection for her, but the film is far more interested in fetishising her, and the action revolving around her, that any notion of creating a character, understanding her circumstances, is nil and void.

Yes, she is meant to be mentally ill (created by Joker in this instance), but fuck me, that doesn't take away the fact that she is meant to be a human being. By showing just one, exceptionally thin, side of her story with Joker, Ayer et al have utterly damaged her as a character with any weight or credence. It in fact appears to highlight the standard Domestic Violence myths that men (and masculine culture as a whole) hold onto:

  • She would leave if the abuse was really that bad
  • Some women like violence
  • Women get what they deserve
We have an entire thread dedicated to sexuality in SF/F and how poorly the genre has represented this human dynamic. That a massive film like this can not only put up-front-and-centre a character like HQ and treat her this way, but revel in it, is beyond me.

It's a terrible film from a story and structural point of view. It's not funny, nor a competent piece of action drama. A host of superb actors have been trapped in shells of characters, all doing their best with this drivel for material. But poor Margot Robbie, who does her very best with Harley, attempting to imbue the character with the fun, quirky, unhinged sensibility of the cartoon she was born from, is lumbered with some especially whacked out material and a director so in love with her posterior he has to film it from all 360 degrees.

There are rumours that much of Harley's/Jokers relationship has been left on the cutting room floor. Some have lamented this loss, believing that the heart of their relationship is in a pool of celluloid somewhere in an editing suite in Hollywood. Given what was offered up here, I fear it is nothing more than reels of the same. Because why trust a writer/director and a studio who felt it was sensible to release THIS material over scenes that might actually humanise and explore what is a dark, twisted and damaged relationship.

It goes back to my endless point of DC/WB wanting both sides of the coin - wanting sell millions of $ of toys whilst still being "edgy" and "dark" and "grown up".

Guess it's hard to sell the posable Harley Quinn action figure with the "Hammer Action Swing" and "Interchangeable Restraining Order"

Hugo - done
 
The audience seemed to really dig HQ so maybe she's transcended her origin to some degree. I don't know if I care to see her more mistreated by the Joker myself.
It all depends on her reaction. If she's scared or badly hurt, then it's bad, but if she finds it exciting or endearing (like Krazy Kat, see below), then it's okay.

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I don't know about Australia but I think it's yet another sign of being too damn old that I actually know what Krazy Kat is.
 
I know about it because I had a friend who was somewhat into underground comics (I've never actually watched the animations). I mean, it may be old, but Krazy Kat is weird enough to be current. Or at least 1960s. ;)
 
Harley Quinn is not a role model designed to dispel men's myths about women and enlighten the audience. She's not meant to be any more of a role model than deadshot who is a hitman giving his daughter advice about bullet projectories. She kills people... she's obsessed with a guy that also kills people. It's ok to have bad people in movies sometimes and still root for them. Sex appeal and affect on men has been a part of her character even in the cartoon. And it's not like any other superhero movie stands up to that level of dissection. (Black widow anyone?) Harley Quinn is the last character I'd complain about over the top sex appeal, except maybe Poison Ivy.

The movie does a great job of humanizing her just enough. I don't think people are going to miss that the joker injures her, makes her jump into those chemicals and is not a nice guy. He may love her or he may just be going after his "property" or to create chaos, he's over the top and theatrical so we don't know. Maybe he was just bored.
 
Harley is definitely not supposed to be a female role model.... no one in this movie is. They're all villains and immensely damaged.
 
15 year nephew made me sit directly behind five 15ish year old girls.

Their observations were nerdy and on point.

I may not weep completely for the youth of the world entirely, but they were totally there to watch Margot Robbie be a badass.

I may not have been paying attention last week, when I saw this movie in America, but I could almost swear that the movie was slightly edited differently for New Zealand.
 
Every single step HQ takes in this film is as a victim of her abusers treatment towards her. What would have given some credence and weight to this tale would have been some contextualising of it and awareness from HQ of her environment and emotional state. But nothing is said. She is a damsel in distress (with a bat and a bit of a swing) waiting to be rescued by her white knight (ha), Joker, as he tries in his valiant way to whisk her away from the monstrous clutches of Amanda Waller. So not only have they removed any agency from her, or frankly any credence of humanity or character, they have tried to turn the story into a tragic love story where her abuser pines over his loss and affects multiple attempts to rescue her. Well done, you just made the villain a hero. And NOT in the sense the film was meant to be aiming for.

Man, that sounds awful. I saw something about it in this article comparing SS to the animated Suicide Squad movie Batman: Assault on Arkham (which is really a Squad movie guest-starring Batman but was titled with sales considerations in mind). In that version, by contrast, Harley is tempted to go back to the Joker, as many abuse victims are tempted to go back to their abusers, but she ends up rejecting him rather forcefully. That's how something like this should be done. Granted, Batman: The Animated Series showed her repeatedly failing to break away from her codependent relationship with the Joker, but that was supposed to be a tragedy, like Clayface's inability to cure himself or Mr. Freeze's inability to save his wife. It was an episodic series, so the villains had to remain trapped in their obsessions and fail in their attempts at healing.

Maybe the intention here is to establish Harley's dependency on the Joker in order to set up the later solo movie where she finally breaks free of him and becomes the independent antiheroine she currently is in the comics. But from your description, it doesn't sound like it works that way in the film, or that viewers unfamiliar with the characters would come away seeing Harley's fate as tragic. That is disturbing.

The brilliance of what Paul Dini did with the Joker and Harley is that he made us laugh at the things they said and did even while we were horrified at them and a little ashamed of ourselves for laughing anyway. It was dark and macabre humor that walked a very fine line. What made Harley so effective was that cognitive dissonance between the superficial sitcom sweetness of Harley's schoolgirl crush on "Mistah J" and the more brutal reality we occasionally glimpsed. We knew that the thing she yearned for so innocently and cutely was the worst possible thing for her, that the man she idolized as the love of her life was a psychopathic narcissist and sadist who was merely using her, and we wanted her to break free from that trap. It was like a more psychologically sophisticated and dark take on all the Batman '66 molls that Adam West's Batman saw as poor, deluded creatures led astray by their fascination with the wrong kind of man, and who often did have a change of heart and get redeemed by the end of the story.

But from what I'm hearing about SS, it sounds like they didn't understand that contrast at all. Painting Harley's return to the Joker as a happy ending? That's like telling us we should be happy for Mr. Freeze that he can never touch his wife again. Or that we should envy Bruce Wayne for not having his parents bossing him around anymore.
 
@Christopher, as much as you get involved in these discussions it surprises me that you wouldn't go see a matinee sometime just so you can express your own thoughts without being reflected through other's opinions.

In anything not dealing with abuse from the Joker Harley in SS is feisty, funny, tough and independent. I think that is what people respond to positively of the character. And I don't think the Joker's treatment of her is supposed to be seen as a good thing in this movie even if Harley isn't shown here to recognize that.
 
@Christopher, as much as you get involved in these discussions it surprises me that you wouldn't go see a matinee sometime just so you can express your own thoughts without being reflected through other's opinions.

I've explained this before, more than once with regard to both BvS and this. One, I can't afford it right now. I rarely spend money to see movies in the theater unless I'm really interested in them, especially when I'm as broke as I am now. And the reviews for this movie have given me no reason to think it will be worth the expense. Two, given what I've heard about all the gunplay, I'd rather wait until it comes out on home video so I can control the volume; I really hate the sound of gunfire.

And as I have also explained more than once, I'm fully aware that this handicaps my ability to comment in an informed way, and I'm not glad of that. I'm just doing the best I can, and I don't expect anyone to take my opinions as gospel.
 
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Ok, I keep seeing people talk about the Joker offering Harley to the other guy, but that is NOT what was happening in the club scene. They specifically set that scene up with a comment about nobody being allowed to disrespect Harley, and the guy J was meeting with made a crude comment about Harley and the Joker didn't like what he said. So Joker offering him Harley and Harley then coming over and flirting with with was not serious, they were screwing with the guy, and having a bit of fun with him before Joker killed him.
I really didn't interpret things anywhere near the way that Hugo Rune seems to have. It was never meant to be a positive relationship, and had clearly left Harley severely damaged, but they managed to make Harley a sympathetic character and so we wanted to see her get what she wants, which in her case was to get back to Mistah J.
 
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It was never meant to be a positive relationship, and had clearly left Harley severely damaged, but they managed to make Harley a sympathetic character and so we wanted to see her get what she wants, which in her case was to get back to Mistah J.

Whaaaa??? That's totally twisted reasoning. If a character is sympathetic to the audience as a victim of abuse, then absolutely the last thing the audience should want is to see her go back to her abuser. If we're sympathetic to Harley, then what we want is for her not to suffer anymore -- to outgrow her self-destructive dependency on the Joker and to stand up for herself. That was what made Dini's original Harley a sympathetic character in the first place, our empathy with her plight and our desire to see her transcend it. When she managed to take steps away from the Joker, as through her friendship with Poison Ivy or her release from Arkham in "Harley's Holiday" or her moment of clarity at the end of "Mad Love," we wanted her to succeed, and when she failed and fell back into her old obsession, we were sad for her. And what makes the modern comics' Harley and Assault on Arkham's Harley sympathetic is that she's succeeded in breaking free, that she's managed to kick her dependence on her former abuser and become her own woman.

So saying that we should be rooting for her to go back to the Joker is horrific. It's like saying we should be rooting for a heroin addict to get an unlimited supply of heroin rather than rooting for them to get clean. When we sympathize with a character, we don't root for her to fulfill her unhealthy desire -- we root for her to overcome it and start pursuing more empowering and functional desires.
 
But we never saw her suffer. She never resisted the shocks, and it was completely her choice to jump into the acid, Joker never traded her or offered to anyone.
Honestly, I'm not even going to disucuss this with you until you've seen the movie for yourself.
I felt Hugo Rune misinterpreted things and when you're going purely by that version of events we can't have a real discussion about what actually happened to Harley in the movie.
 
But in the context of the larger identity and background of Harley Quinn as a character, as an exemplar for abused women seeking or achieving liberation, the movie's choice to redefine her relationship with the Joker as somehow positive is deeply disturbing in and of itself, as profound and clueless a misreading of the character as Snyder's Objectivist Jonathan Kent. And it reflects the equally disturbing trend of works like Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey to present emotionally or physically abusive relationships as something romantic that women should crave. As a cultural trend, it's sick and dangerous. Whether these stories are true to their own interpretations doesn't matter, because it's the choice to go for those interpretations in the first place that's unhealthy.
 
But I don't know if I'd really say that it is portrayed as positive or something women should crave. I think I misworded some of what I was trying to say here. All I know is that they managed to make me feel sympathy for Harley, and happy for her when she got what she wanted. When I watch a movie, all I really think about is if I like what I'm seeing, and how I feel about it, and here all I know is that I liked what I saw from Harley, and I felt happy for her at the end. I'm not really a person who analysizes everything when I see a movie or TV show or read a book or comic, I just go by what I feel and what I like as I'm watching it.
 
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