Stop bullying T'Pol!

[Joel_Kirk]

In TATV, I think Archer still berated T'Pol...and ordered her to tell Chef/Riker what dish she would like for the upcoming dinner.

I was thinking: 'Wow'....

Well, that's not really true. He acknowledges that she doesn't trust Shran, tells her why he's going to help him, and asks her to understand. Then, here's the dialogue with respect to dinner:

ARCHER: By the way, drop by the galley when you get a moment. Chef's trying to come up with a menu for our last dinner together. He wants to know everybody's favourite dish.
T'POL: There are eighty three crewmembers aboard.
ARCHER: Just go see him, all right?
(She leaves, and Porthos jumps up to his master)
ARCHER: Don't worry. Chef's promised at least six kinds of cheese.

She's not saying "I don't want to," she's questioning whether Chef can accommodate the preferences of 83 different people. He responds, "Just go see him, all right?"
Hardly berating and ordering, that.

Okay, you convinced me...

 

[cylkoth]

Trip and Archer are CONSTANTLY asking her to be something that she's not. They constantly berate Vulcan culture to her face...they demand that she do things she has no interest in. They refuse to even attempt to see things from her point of view, and ask that she bow to their (lack of) wisdom.

Okay, if it's so CONSTANT, and there are 97 episodes, then there must be reams of examples. Can you give some? (And not just, they didn't take her advice. . .) Because I've heard variations on this theme for years now, and I've a hunch that is is a wild exaggeration, if not completely untrue.

Well, guess I'll need to gas up the Wayback Machine...
Broken Bow

ARCHER: We've been deferring to their judgement for a hundred years!
FORREST: Jon.
ARCHER: How much longer?
T'POL: Until you've proven you're ready,
ARCHER: Ready to what?
T'POL: To look beyond your provincial attitudes and volatile nature.
ARCHER: Volatile? You have no idea how much I'm restraining myself from knocking you on your ass.

--
ARCHER: Four days there, four days back, then she's gone. In the meantime, we're to extend her every courtesy.
TUCKER: I don't know. I'd be more comfortable with Porthos on the Bridge.
ARCHER: Here we go. Come in.
T'POL: This confirms that I was formally transferred to your command at oh eight hundred hours. Reporting for duty. (sniffs)
ARCHER: Is there a problem?
T'POL: No, sir.
ARCHER: Oh, I forgot. Vulcan females have a heightened sense of smell. I hope Porthos isn't too offensive to you.
T'POL: I've been trained to tolerate offensive situations.
TUCKER: I took a shower this morning. How about you, Captain?

If you know someone finds dog's odor offense, shouldn't you as a dog owner, physically remove your dog from the person's leg he's jumping on? Archer just sat there...Her feelings (such as they were), meant nothing to him

Fight or Flight

TUCKER: (pours iced tea) I heard they were humanoid. Is that right?
ARCHER: Humanoid.
TUCKER: Did they look anything like us?
ARCHER: They were in uniform.
TUCKER: But you didn't recognise the species.
ARCHER: They were crewmen, murdered on their own ship. Fifteen dead crewmen.
T'POL: I detected a stellar nursery along our present course.
TUCKER: I saw one once through the big lens outside Anchorage.
T'POL: A closer view might alleviate some of the crew's tension.
ARCHER: What's the matter, the tension bothering you?
T'POL: Not in the least.
ARCHER: Must be great not to let things bother you. No remorse, no guilt. What if they were Vulcans? Think you would have reacted the same way?
T'POL: They weren't Vulcans.
ARCHER: I said, what if they were Vulcans. Would you have just left them there, hanging like slaughtered animals? Don't you think maybe you would have taken them down, tried to figure out who they were, made some effort to contact their families?
T'POL: We don't know where they came from. It would be very difficult to locate their families.
ARCHER: We didn't even try. (to Tucker) What about you, what if they were humans? Would you just stick your tail between your legs and run, leave them there to rot? Am I the only one who's having a problem with this?
TUCKER: You said it yourself, sir. Whoever killed those people are probably coming back.
ARCHER: So we should avoid confrontation cost, is that what you're saying? Is that what you Vulcans do? Bury your heads in the sand and then just fly on by?
T'POL: We Vulcans would have never gone on board that ship in the first place.
ARCHER: You got an answer for everything, don't you.
T'POL: We have a code of behaviour, and we try to obey it.
ARCHER: You may not believe this, but humans have a code of behaviour too. It took a few thousand years, but I think we're starting to get it right. I can't believe I almost ignored it.

Again, you KNOW that Vulcans do not allow their emotions to rule their decisions, yet, why show such open contempt for T'Pol following the tenants of her culture? Just because it's not how humans would do things? Her offering her pioint of view in no way meant that Archer had to abide by it. Why the pouting childlike behavior?

Starnge New World

T'POL: Captain. There are a number of protocols you may want to consider.
ARCHER: Protocols.
T'POL: Vulcan ships would begin by sending automated probes down to collect more detailed scans. If the planet proved to be Minshara-class, we would then conduct a geophysical survey from orbit.
TRAVIS: Minshara-class?
HOSHI: Suitable for humanoid life.
ARCHER: How long would all that take?
T'POL: Six or seven days.
TUCKER: (still at the door) You expect us to sit up here for a week while probes have all the fun?
T'POL: This planet has been here a long time. It will still be here in seven days.
ARCHER: I understand that you have a more cautious approach, but we didn't come out here to tip-toe around. (to Tucker) Get the pod ready. (he leaves) I'd like you to put together the survey team. I assume that's not a violation of protocol?

Breaking the Ice

ARCHER: I thought I'd invite Captain Vanik for a visit. If he's so interested in how we do things, he might as well come see for himself. Once he realises we're not going to blow up the galaxy, maybe he'll leave us alone.
T'POL: I'm sure he'll appreciate the gesture.
ARCHER: Dinner's a good way to break the ice. I was hoping you might give Chef some menu suggestions.
T'POL: Certainly.
ARCHER: A little food, a little wine.
T'POL: Vulcans don't drink wine.
ARCHER: You know what I mean. Just help me make him go away

----

[/SIZE]T'POL: It's customary for a husband and wife to reside together for at least one Vulcan year.
TUCKER: Maybe he can come to Enterprise.
T'POL: He's an architect. It would be illogical for him to live aboard a starship.
TUCKER: This whole thing sounds illogical.
T'POL: Your advice, Commander.
TUCKER: What do you want to do?
T'POL: That is irrelevant.
TUCKER: No, it's not. It's very relevant. Do you want to go back and marry this guy, spend a year with him, ten years, a hundred years, or do you want to stay on Enterprise?
T'POL: I have an obligation.
TUCKER: You've got an obligation to yourself. You've spent the last year around humans. If there's one thing you should have learned it's that we're free to make our own decisions. There's a lot to be said for personal choice.
T'POL: If you'd spent the last year on Vulcan, you would have learned that our commitment to tradition outweighs personal choice.
TUCKER: I respect your customs, but this marriage was arranged when you were a kid. A lot's happened since then. People change.
T'POL: Vulcan's don't.
TUCKER: Really.
T'POL: My obligation is to my culture, my heritage. It has to take precedence.

Chuck Vulcan custom sweetie, we humans know better than you pointy eared know-it-alls. You should be more like us, and less like yourselves.

Civilization

ARCHER: Let's take a closer look. (aerial view of a coastal town) Do you see that, just off the coast.
HOSHI: I've got it. (zooms in on a three masted ship)
TUCKER: Looks like an old clipper ship.
ARCHER: It's almost like travelling back in time.
TUCKER: I cannot wait to get down there.
T'POL: I'd advise against that. It's standard protocol to wait until a society develops warp drive before initiating first contact.
TUCKER: Those are Vulcan protocols, not human.
T'POL: Starfleet would be wise to adopt them. There's no way to know how our arrival would affect the evolution of their society.
TUCKER: So what are you suggesting we do?
T'POL: Our sensors can gather a great deal of data from orbit.
ARCHER: Give me a tighter view of the city, Hoshi. (zooms in to see people in a narrow street) Can you get tight enough to see their faces? (zooms on a couple talking, a woman turns her head) Freeze that. They don't look so different. What do you think, Trip?
TUCKER: I think you're right, Captain.
T'POL: You'd be recognised immediately as outsiders.
ARCHER: Not if we look like them. Starfleet could've sent a probe out here to make maps and take pictures, but they didn't. They sent us so we could explore with our own senses.

Horizon

TUCKER: So, you coming tonight?
T'POL: If the sensors are calibrated by then.
TUCKER: Well, you'd better make up your mind. Seats are going to fill up fast.
T'POL: According to the database, Frankenstein is also a work of literature.
TUCKER: Mary Shelley wrote it, the wife of a famous poet.
T'POL: Perhaps a dramatic reading would be more illuminating.
TUCKER: You expect a Mess hall full of crewmen to sit still while someone reads to them?
T'POL: They'd be more likely to appreciate the author's true intent.
TUCKER: You want to start a book club, go right ahead. You're going to be there tonight, aren't you, sir?
ARCHER: Wouldn't miss it.
TUCKER: I'll save you some popcorn. (leaves)
ARCHER: Might be a good idea for you to go, too. It might be fun, and a little fraternising couldn't hurt.
T'POL: I don't understand how sitting silently in a darkened room constitutes fraternising.
ARCHER: It's a communal experience. Tell you what, let's make a night of it. Dinner in the Captain's Mess eighteen hundred, movie at nineteen thirty. You'll be my date.
T'POL: I beg your pardon?
ARCHER: I'll be a perfect gentleman. And if you don't like the movie, I'll never ask you to sit through another one.

I have no interest in attending...You MUST attend, I demand that you give something that you're aware of-as you lived on Earth for several years but never bothered with because you had no interest in, a try, because it would make me feel better.



Note reading a dry transcript doesn't quite match how dialogue comes through onscreen. Those are just a few examples. I'm getting dizzy scrolling through these, so if you'd like more, we can pick out others later.

 

[SFRabid]

I take it you have never had a boss who tried to push you to do better or a friend that tried to get you to expand your interests. I would never have tried Chinese food if I had not been coaxed, I mean bullied, into it. Now I eat it once a week. I would not have practiced piano or played recitals without being pushed, I mean bullied. As a result I had the opportunity to spend my 20’s as a full time professional musician. That was a great time in my life. I was also bullied to go back to school and get my degree. Now I’m a CIO bullying others to expand their horizons and push for things they never considered.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

cylkoth, I notice that most of your examples are from early in Season 1, when Archer and T'Pol's relationship was purposefully rocky. Archer, by his own admission at the end of "Broken Bow," had prejudices about Vulcans that he needed to get past. It would not have been credible to me for him to discard a lifetime of bias overnight -- especially bias that arose largely from what he considered a grave injustice done to his father. It didn't help Archer that he kept encountering Vulcans who were duplicitous, arrogant, and secretive.

Actually, the same goes for T'Pol: she had preconceptions about humans that took her quite a while to overcome.

An oft-used source of conflict on the show was Archer's emotional point of view, the way he identified with people in need, or people unfairly treated, vs. T'Pol's efficient, unemotional (read: no-fun, callous) perspective. Sure, Archer's enthusiasm and impulsiveness led to trouble sometimes (not all the time) -- it was part of his learning process. He was unrealistically idealistic at first, and he had to adjust. I thought T'Pol was downright annoying a lot of the time early on, and deliberately so; it was part of her learning process to loosen up and be less condescending toward the humans.

Breaking the Ice...

T'POL: Your advice, Commander.
TUCKER: What do you want to do?
T'POL: That is irrelevant.
TUCKER: No, it's not. It's very relevant. Do you want to go back and marry this guy, spend a year with him, ten years, a hundred years, or do you want to stay on Enterprise?
T'POL: I have an obligation.
TUCKER: You've got an obligation to yourself. You've spent the last year around humans. If there's one thing you should have learned it's that we're free to make our own decisions. There's a lot to be said for personal choice.
T'POL: If you'd spent the last year on Vulcan, you would have learned that our commitment to tradition outweighs personal choice.
TUCKER: I respect your customs, but this marriage was arranged when you were a kid. A lot's happened since then. People change.
T'POL: Vulcan's don't.
TUCKER: Really.
T'POL: My obligation is to my culture, my heritage. It has to take precedence.

Chuck Vulcan custom sweetie, we humans know better than you pointy eared know-it-alls. You should be more like us, and less like yourselves.

Trip was also purposefully set up at first as a very human foil for T'Pol's extreme Vulcanness -- but they learned from each other. This scene, and this episode, is an example of that.

I didn't see a "you should be more like us" attitude from Trip during this scene. He was giving her advice that she requested, from the perspective of a human who didn't understand or like Vulcan tradition. Her reaction was to take him to task for it, but such contradictory behavior is a classic "tell," revealing her own inner turmoil regarding her obligation as a Vulcan. (Trip was also extremely troubled by his inadvertent invasion into her privacy, and made sure to apologize to her. Not exactly "bully" behavior.)

Note that by the episode's end, T'Pol did choose Enterprise over Vulcan custom. She appeared to have taken Trip's words to heart. Even about pecan pie.

Horizon...

ARCHER: Might be a good idea for you to go, too. It might be fun, and a little fraternising couldn't hurt.
T'POL: I don't understand how sitting silently in a darkened room constitutes fraternising.
ARCHER: It's a communal experience. Tell you what, let's make a night of it. Dinner in the Captain's Mess eighteen hundred, movie at nineteen thirty. You'll be my date.
T'POL: I beg your pardon?
ARCHER: I'll be a perfect gentleman. And if you don't like the movie, I'll never ask you to sit through another one.

I have no interest in attending...You MUST attend, I demand that you give something that you're aware of-as you lived on Earth for several years but never bothered with because you had no interest in, a try, because it would make me feel better.

"You must attend"? I saw T'Pol failing to see the purpose of going to a movie, and Archer asking her to give it a try.

There are different ways to interpret scenes, and characters, and intentions. It all depends on the viewer's perspective, I think.

 

[cylkoth]

I understand the desire to have the characters be foils for one another. Perhaps in the hands of different writers, those scenes would have resonated differently. My biggest gripe with the show (one I do care about, btw, not a hater by any means), is how forced the writing felt. Maybe is was the actor's performances maybe not, but rather than those scenes feeling organic and natural, it would often come off as overtly artificial, let's have conflict for the sake of conflict. There was a nagging sense of, I can't be comfortable with you, unless you conform to how I want you to behave...which for me, made Trip and Archer seem incredibly trite and condescending, driving me nutz.

And you're right...most of those example are from the earlier seasons. Sci Fi seems to run seasons 1,2 & 4 more often than they do s3. I'm always running into eps from those seasons whenever I catch a broadcast. So hyperbole restrained, this phenomenon of bullying T'Pol, occurred during at least, half the series run. I can think of none that stand out during the time in the Expanse. And I won't count the trellium induced conflicts as examples of her being bullied when sparring with the others. S4 pretty much ended it...

 

[JiNX-01]

I understand the desire to have the characters be foils for one another. Perhaps in the hands of different writers, those scenes would have resonated differently. My biggest gripe with the show (one I do care about, btw, not a hater by any means), is how forced the writing felt. Maybe is was the actor's performances maybe not, but rather than those scenes feeling organic and natural, it would often come off as overtly artificial, let's have conflict for the sake of conflict. There was a nagging sense of, I can't be comfortable with you, unless you conform to how I want you to behave...which for me, made Trip and Archer seem incredibly trite and condescending, driving me nutz.

And you're right...most of those example are from the earlier seasons. Sci Fi seems to run seasons 1,2 & 4 more often than they do s3. I'm always running into eps from those seasons whenever I catch a broadcast. So hyperbole restrained, this phenomenon of bullying T'Pol, occurred during at least, half the series run. I can think of none that stand out during the time in the Expanse. And I won't count the trellium induced conflicts as examples of her being bullied when sparring with the others. S4 pretty much ended it...

I know exactly what you mean. You know why it doesn't feel right?

Archer asked T'Pol to stay as his science officer.

And yet, when she tries to advise him, he blows her off and does exactly as he would have had she been back on Vulcan or Earth. When he spots a Vulcan starship, he gives T'Pol a dirty look (sometimes throws in some crap), as if it's her fault they showed up and gave him a hard time.

Bottom line: The so-called tension and friction is bull.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

Actually, I think this touches on something else that I find interesting, which is the relationship between first officer and captain. Before I make my point I want someone to correct me if I'm way off here, this is a theory that I've been mulling around for a while.

TOS: Kirk & Spock. I'm pretty sure that Kirk actually takes Spock's advice or even asks for it. They seem to have a good relationship. They certainly do have a good relationship by the end of the films, there's no questioning that.

TNG: Picard & Riker. Basically these two end up as best friends, Picard is all but misty-eyed when Riker leaves for the Titan. Picard quite often asks Riker's opinion, but I don't recall him ever being unreasonable when he disagreed with it, and I'm pretty sure he often explains himself. Good relationship.

DS9: Sisko & Kira. Kira pretty much can't stand the sight of Sisko on occasion, but he does quite often throw her a bone, and only ever comes down on her when she completely takes the piss out of the chain of command. By season 2 they're on a pretty good relationship, which improves throughout the show. He's not always in a position to take advice from her as she doesn't always go on the Defiant, but they definitely trust each other. When she offers advice, he may go against it, but he doesn't just overrule her. They key thing here is mutual respect I think.

VOY: Janeway & Chakotay. The number of times Chakotay went into Janeway's office to object about something and then came out with his tail between his legs is too many to count. They get on like a house on fire, and Chakotay can disagree with her, but when it comes to the crunch, Janeway wears the pants and won't listen to anyone else, whether that be her XO or any other member of the crew. Good relationship as friends, not so great as Captain and FO.

ENT: Archer & T'Pol. For the first 2ish seasons, Archer pretty much ignores most of what T'Pol says. By Season 3, he's getting on with her much better, and actively tries to get her involved with the crew (hence movie night, mentioned above), but still there are plenty of times where he completely ignores her advice. He often ends up regretting it as well (although admittedly sometimes not). He gets on OK with her off duty (horrendously cheesy Freudian slip episode aside), but again as a CO/XO relationship it's not that brilliant.

There's the analysis, now here's the theory - are the writers (or story editors, I'm thinking long term rather than ep by ep) trying to assert the Captain's authority more through conflict with the First officer in later series?

 

[commodore64]

^ I disagree on elements of your analysis in the above relationships. For example, I think by season 4, Archer and T'Pol get on well as Captain/XO. In that season, I can think of very few times T'Pol and Archer disagree about something and he blatantly ignores her advice. Bound might be it, and I believe the writer intended to show us Archer was already effected by the Orion women's pheremones. T'Pol's plea in the Andorian arc about not fighting Shran has nothing to do with her being the XO; she's worried about her friend.

I think season 3 was about Archer learning to take what he's learned from the Vulcans (something he was amenable to in late season 1 and during season 2) and using really his own voice to become captain -- making his own decisions. I also think that's where T'Pol began to falter. No longer did she have all the answers; she was just as confused about the Expanse as the humans were. I think Twilight showed us it was dangerous to always take T'Pol's advice; it'd lead to Earth's destruction.

There's the analysis, now here's the theory - are the writers (or story editors, I'm thinking long term rather than ep by ep) trying to assert the Captain's authority more through conflict with the First officer in later series?

I think you're more or less right. I thought VOY could've been interesting, but the said conflict between Janeway and Chakotay was pretty much eradicated by end of season 1. Archer started taking T'Pol's advice over Trip's by the end of season 2.

I think more than anything, Braga just wanted conflict because it's interesting, especially since the audience knows everyone will get along by the end.

 

[bluedana]

Note reading a dry transcript doesn't quite match how dialogue comes through onscreen.

I've seen the episodes, every one of them, most of them numerous times. All I see of the "evidence" of Archer's and Trip's being mean to, dismissive of, and berating T'Pol is conversation where they don't agree, where they don't do things her way, where they try to get her to do something she doesn't want to or doesn't think she wants to do, or, when all else fails, where they look at her funny. This, to me, is very thin evidence of "bullying" or meanness in general. I don't expect the people who work for me, or who I work for, to agree with my point of view all the time, or take my suggestions. I'm not going to cry "disrespect!" if they don't.

How about comments on "your pointy ears," "your green blood," or the infamous "Are you out of your Vulcan mind?" Those are things that made me feel very uncomfortable as a minority in isolation, much like Spock on NCC-1701 - and I cheered when he finally let loose in All Our Yesterdays: "I don't like that and I don't think I ever did." I don't see anything even approaching that level of disrespect toward T'Pol on ENT.

As they say in car commercials, your mileage may vary, but for me, it's not helpful to start with the proposition that anything Person X or Person Y says is wrong, mean or insulting, and then use every instance where they don't say, Yes, Madame T'Pol, you are absolutely right, to prove my point.

 

[SFRabid]

Actually, I think this touches on something else that I find interesting, which is the relationship between first officer and captain. Before I make my point I want someone to correct me if I'm way off here, this is a theory that I've been mulling around for a while.

TOS: Kirk & Spock. I'm pretty sure that Kirk actually takes Spock's advice or even asks for it. They seem to have a good relationship. They certainly do have a good relationship by the end of the films, there's no questioning that.

...

There is a big difference in the foundation of the relationship between Archer/T'Pol and Kirk/Spock, or any other captain/first officer in the 5 series. Kirk and Spock were both federation officers with a history of serving on ships. T'Pol was forced on Archer by the Vulcans because "humans have no idea what they are getting into." Part of what made it interesting is how they worked through the problems and moved past that arrangement.