STID Federation Seal Question...

[M'Sharak]

^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

If it's not the point, then why bring up that particular example in the first place?

Actually, when I saw the cogwheel my first allusion was this particular flag of the German "Workfront"

... all these uniforms ... reminded me again (like the movie from 2009) too much of "Starship Troopers" ...

... and a guy who wants to be the "Führer" with his superior breed of supermen.

(emphasis mine)

The rest...

Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob

... comes across somewhat as backpedaling after having first (and none too subtly) cried "Nazi!" in order to get people's attention.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.

 

[Balrog]

This thread is HILARIOUS!

 

[M'Sharak]

Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.

Exactly. It's hard to make anything terribly controversial out of symbolism which stands for "cooperative effort toward a common goal" or, put more simply, "working together". If there was anything sinister about the Deutsche Arbeitsfront flag, it had much more to do with the color scheme and the swastika than with the gear wheel symbol, which was very likely adopted there for much the same reason it figured in the emblems of many of the other organizations and entities already named in this thread.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

 

[Robert Comsol]

^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

If it's not the point, then why bring up that particular example in the first place?

I merely stated what kind of impression that new UFP flag made on me when I first saw it.
Everyone else did not have that kind of allusion, so that was obviously not an issue worthy of further evaluation.

Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).

This inevitably brings up the question what the filmmakers tried to convey to the audience by changing the original flag.

• in the future the workers rule and/or have equal rights? (conclusion: the workers ruled and/or did have equal rights in the old nations of Earth carrying the cogwheel in their flags)
• China plays an important part in the UFP of the 22nd (foundation of UFP?) and/or 23rd Century? (odd we don't see that many Asian actors in this future)

I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.

For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.

Bob

 

[Balrog]

In this timeline, John Gill designed the Federation's flag.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.

Mister Spacely is a lot more influential in the JJ verse than he was in the prime universe.

 

[Franklin]

I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.

Mister Spacely is a lot more influential in the JJ verse than he was in the prime universe.

I'm so old I got that!

 

[Opus]

Me too.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).

As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.

This inevitably brings up the question what the filmmakers tried to convey to the audience by changing the original flag.

• in the future the workers rule and/or have equal rights? (conclusion: the workers ruled and/or did have equal rights in the old nations of Earth carrying the cogwheel in their flags)

• Uh... what?
  
  

  [*]China plays an important part in the UFP of the 22nd (foundation of UFP?) and/or 23rd Century?

  Given my first comment, this makes no sense.
  
  

  For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.

  Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.
  
  Do the branches mean that the Federation supports Biblical literalism? (You know, the original olive branch story.) Does it support Athena as the main goddess of the Federation? (olive trees were sacred to her.) Does it mean the Federation is inspired by the peacenik generation ideals?
  
  I don't think so. It's just a vague symbol of peace that would be understood by viewers, just as the cogwheel is a symbol of labour and cooperation. The only controversy is in your mind.

 

[WinstonSmith]

The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?

Not necessarily, but a federation emblem featuring a stylised eagle, an ear of wheat and a cog would definitely have... allusions to various totalitarian regimes. Indeed, even as the current emblem is an allusion to the UN

As for the cog as a symbol, it definitely does have communist connotations, that was one of the first things I thought of when it was pointed out. However, having said that, I hadn't noticed it until then, and I'm perfectly willing to see it as simply someone in the art department going 'oh, that pattern looks cool' and nothing more

personally I think its a bit weird that the emblem of an interstellar government of hundreds of worlds is so similar to one of an intergovernmental agency of ancient Earth anyway, but hey, it fits with the 'human centric' star trek universe, and is more relatable to a contemporary audience, so I can at least understand it

 

[Robert Comsol]

Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).

As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.

Correction: Not in the flag but pretty obvious in the national "emblem" of China.

For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.

Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.

While the olive branches may be equally weird (hence Franz Joseph suggested in his UFP proposal should reflect a male and female humanoid profile) they obviously have no ideological connotation which obviously is the reason why "we" do have the United Nations flag as it is (and without a cogwheel).

It's just a vague symbol of peace that would be understood by viewers, just as the cogwheel is a symbol of labour and cooperation. The only controversy is in your mind.

None of this provides a possible clue why the filmmakers changed the previous UFP flag by adding a cogwheel.

By your own reasoning this would have been a good opportunity from an "in-universe" point of view to get rid of the "earthbound" olive branches. Instead we got an archaic cogwheel added.

No problem with that assuming Vulcans and/or Tellarites and/or Andorians also used cogwheels in their original national flags. Looks like the best rationalization I can come up with.

Bob

 

[iguana_tonante]

Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).

As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.

Correction: Not in the flag but pretty obvious in the national "emblem" of China.

I see. A small cogwheel buried in the lower part of the emblem. I doubt that it means "China plays an important part in the UFP". As I've shown, the Italian emblem has a much more prominent cogwheel. Does it mean that Italy plays an even bigger role in the UFP? I sure hope not, for the Federation's sake!

Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.

While the olive branches may be equally weird (hence Franz Joseph suggested in his UFP proposal should reflect a male and female humanoid profile) they obviously have no ideological connotation which obviously is the reason why "we" do have the United Nations flag as it is (and without a cogwheel).

Obviously, the reason is that the UN flag was designed by a western citizen. The olive branches symbol is just as ideological as the cogwheel, you just don't recognize it because it's your ideology.

No problem with that assuming Vulcans and/or Tellarites and/or Andorians also used cogwheels in their original national flags. Looks like the best rationalization I can come up with.

I just don't see the need for a rationalization. They tinkered a bit with the flag. Real countries do it all the time. So what?

 

[Opus]

New seal then for the fans...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

 

[SeerSGB]

It's worse than we thought...the UAW takes over the Federation in the future? Look, look, I tell you a cog emblem! No....no, the Machinist are in on it too! My god, how far does Abram's conspiracy to indoctrinate our youth go?!

 

[BillJ]

I approve of this because it seems to fit current fandom to a tee.

New seal then for the fans...

 

[M'Sharak]

Come on - mocking movies, plots, opinions or arguments is all kosher, but swipes at fans / fan groups is something I'd rather not have.

 

[Opus]

Sorry...

<looks at ground and kicks rock with shoe>