STID Federation Seal Question...
- Thread starter Gotham Central
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In-universe, I might speculate that perhaps the "gears" variation represents an alternate design used for memorials, and in funerals for Starfleet officers and Federation statesmen -- a flag of mourning, perhaps, maybe with the tradition originating in a world that joined the Federation in this timeline but not in the Prime timeline.
Yeah. Nothing offensive at all there. Especially the rolleyes.Actually, when I saw the cogwheel my first allusion was this particular flag of the German "Workfront"
Sorry - and I really don't want to offend anybody
Well, when I saw the new UFP flag I immediately felt some discomfort and needed to track it down.
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
) and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.Bob
You might be the first to have come up with that particular allusion. If indeed allusion it be - honestly, I think to draw that connection is stretching things a bit far.Yeah. Nothing offensive at all there. Especially the rolleyes.Actually, when I saw the cogwheel my first allusion was this particular flag of the German "Workfront"
Sorry - and I really don't want to offend anybody
Well, when I saw the new UFP flag I immediately felt some discomfort and needed to track it down.
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Bob
Funny story, my elementary school (mid-90's) used the UFP logo (Movie/TNG style) and just changed the color from blue to purple.
I'm guessing from Bob's location as "USS Berlin" and from earlier comments that he's from Germany, so he might be a bit more sensitive than the rest of us to that kind of related imagery. But yeah, for the rest of us, I'm pretty sure there's nothing more to it than an interesting design deviation.You might be the first to have come up with that particular allusion. If indeed allusion it be - honestly, I think to draw that connection is stretching things a bit far.Yeah. Nothing offensive at all there. Especially the rolleyes.
Well, when I saw the new UFP flag I immediately felt some discomfort and needed to track it down.
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Bob
True, but, there's no similarity except the CogWheel, which people have posted several images of with much more similarity. The Starfleet seal doesn't have a Red background, and doesn't have a schwastikaI'm guessing from Bob's location as "USS Berlin" and from earlier comments that he's from Germany, so he might be a bit more sensitive than the rest of us to that kind of related imagery. But yeah, for the rest of us, I'm pretty sure there's nothing more to it than an interesting design deviation.You might be the first to have come up with that particular allusion. If indeed allusion it be - honestly, I think to draw that connection is stretching things a bit far.Well, when I saw the new UFP flag I immediately felt some discomfort and needed to track it down.
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Bob
I'm pretty sure you're right about the location, and I do understand the reasons why certain symbols carry extra freight there. However, I still maintain that it's a reach too far. With the exception of the gear wheel device—which has itself been shown in this thread to be far from an unusual feature in seals and emblems national, civic, and fraternal—the two flags have nothing whatsoever in common.I'm guessing from Bob's location as "USS Berlin" and from earlier comments that he's from Germany, so he might be a bit more sensitive than the rest of us to that kind of related imagery. But yeah, for the rest of us, I'm pretty sure there's nothing more to it than an interesting design deviation.You might be the first to have come up with that particular allusion. If indeed allusion it be - honestly, I think to draw that connection is stretching things a bit far.Well, when I saw the new UFP flag I immediately felt some discomfort and needed to track it down.
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Bob
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Indeed, the first time I saw the "cog wheel" variation of the Federation flag, I thought of the Flag of the International Labour Organization, not the flag of the Nazi German Labour Front -- which I had nebver heard abvout before today.
It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Just so long as they never try to add spinner rims. Do that, and it's over.It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Srsly.
Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference? 
Turn in your nerdcard at the door. Your picture is on file, so don't even think of coming back.Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference?
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" (
Then it would seem you are rather short-sighted. Rest assured that many people here in Germany that know a few things about history had the same kind of allusions.
Of course, what applies in one country doesn't have to apply in another one. No German car buyer had issues with cars nicknamed "Jumper" or "Pajero". However, the "Jumper" didn't sell well in the UK nor did the "Pajero" in Spain...
It's again the same old "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". There had never been a discussion regarding debatable allusions of the UN or the old UFP flag.
However, the moment the introduction of a new and different element was considered (i.e. cogwheel) that should have merited some research whether the cogwheel is a universally unencumbered symbol or not (especially when you align plenty of people in military uniforms under such a flag).
Bob
The cogwheel is a well-established and pretty widespread symbol of collaboration and operosity. It has been used for decades by societies, unions, organizations, national emblems, and flags, including in one instance for a nazi labour organization. So now nobody can use it again? Better tell that to the Rotary, the ILO, not to mention quite a few political parties and even some countries.
The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?
It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?
It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.
Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.
One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?
Bob
Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.
One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?
Bob
For the reasons you give above, what the flag actually shows me is someone on the design or production team for STID was actually using their imaginations and did some research in coming up with an alternate version of the Federation flag. Perhaps the Federation drew even tighter after the destruction of Vulcan, and the cogwheel exemplifies that.
That said, the only thing that may draw legitimate in universe questions is whether or not the cogwheel symbol works across all or most Federation species. Then again, no one has ever thought a second time about the application of bay leaves or olive braches as universally recognized symbols in the seal, so it must.
Or maybe you're overestimating the number of people who know or care about a cogwheel. While the Communist or workers connections might be better known, the Nazi one probably isn't. Abrams is Jewish, so I don't see him using a "Nazi" symbol in that fashion.^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.
Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.
One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?
Bob
I think you you mean 23rd Century. "Archaic" symbols abound in national iconography.
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