Stealing Trek Literature

[David R. George III]

Why is there such outrage over downloading Star Trek novels but not Star Trek scripts and show bibles? And no one seemed to mind all that much when Michael Piller's unfinished, unpublished book was leaked.

I can only speak for myself, but just because I express disapprobation about one immoral act does not mean I condone others. It seems unreasonable to assume that when I discuss why it is wrong to illegally download Star Trek novels--the subject of this thread--that I would also include every other thing I think is wrong, even within the same sphere.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

But... not necessarily going cheep.

That's probably the best nestimate. You should count it as a feather in your cap.

As for my jokes, I do apologize for egging people on, volks; I don't want to get the flock out of here or anything. Hen the end, we're all friends.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Oh, come on Dimesdan. Really?

Really what exactly? I felt it was retarded and it was an unfunny joke, and in this kind of thread, an attempt at so called humour of Mrs Laser Beams style is totally uncalled for.

Worse than calling him Mrs. Laser Beam??

 

[kkozoriz1]

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

But... not necessarily going cheep.

That's probably the best nestimate. You should count it as a feather in your cap.

As for my jokes, I do apologize for egging people on, volks; I don't want to get the flock out of here or anything. Hen the end, we're all friends.

Eggzactly. And since we're in a lit forum, getting us back on topic "The hen is mightier than the sword"

 

[JD]

How are they doing it, a code printed inside the book? How do they keep someone from simply copying the info? It would make sense, just wondering ass to how it's handled.

I dunno, but this was a topic of conversation at a "Future of the Book" seminar my literary agent held a few months ago. Australian publishers are already investigating/experimenting with print book packages that include eBook and audiobook versions. There are also ongoing discussions with publishers as to how eBooks might be lent out by public libraries, and how eBooks might make use of online interactivity.

Actually the online interactivity thing has already been done, although it was originally published in paper form. Anthony E. Zuicker, the creator of the CSI franchise is currently writing Level 26 the first "digi-novel" series. When you read the books every chapter or two you will come across a code printed on the page, and when you type it into the books' website you get either a film clip or something interactive that is related to what was happening in the book. I haven't actually read the ebook copy of the first one I legally bought from B&N.com yet, but I'm very curious to see how it works out. So far there are two of them, Dark Origins and Dark Prophecy, and a third one is due out next year.

Here (uk) I can download ebooks directly on my android phone using my library membership, they handle it like a physical book in that while I have the 'copy', nobody else can loan it - not sure if it 'returns' itself once my two weeks are up...

Regarding libraries and ebooks:

Here in Sweden we have one company that makes e-books (eLib). Through them online stores can sell un-drm:ed epubs (they are "watermarked", which inself is pretty pointless because it's just to convert the file to text, remove the text, and reconvert back if you really want to get rid of the lines (read: not worth it really).

For libraries, they have time-locked epubs. They work for 30 days or so and then becomes inactive. You can only borrow three books/week. This is due to the fact as it's set up at the moment the libraries pay eLib 20 SEK (about $1.50) for each loan. The libraries don't like this but this is apparently the "best way" to make sure that the right holders get some money from the library loans.

On the other hand - i tried just on a whim to borrow one book and run it though an un-DRM-program for epubs. It worked like a charm, and I found myself with an unlocked book that I've got for "free" from the library. And my city (libraries are financed through the city) paid for it to eLib.

I believe the biggest problem for ebooks and other downloadable content is that it's not a viable business model. Too many people have been converted to believe that "everything on the internet should be free, or at least a lot more cheaper than a physical item".

Do you need to live in that city in order to get e-books from a library? I would love to do this but I couldn't find anything interesting when I checked at my library.

the limited-edition-collectible version will come with a snazzy printed hardcopy dead-tree-format BOOK book.

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

I've not really got much to say on the matter and what I asked earlier was indirectly answered, I'm with Scott, David, Greg and Christopher on this matter.

But you know what, in a thread that is pretty serious and is very thought provoking subject, that is a pretty retarded and far from funny comment to come out with Mrs Laser Beam and I hope I'm not the only person who thinks so.

Oh, come on Dimesdan. Really?

Oh, come on Dimesdan. Really?

Really what exactly? I felt it was retarded and it was an unfunny joke, and in this kind of thread, an attempt at so called humour of Mrs Laser Beams style is totally uncalled for.

Wow, overreact much.
I actually found it pretty funny.
Oh, and I'm suprised nobody has mentioned the LendMe feature that some of the Nookbooks have available. I haven't done it yet myself, but apparently if you know someone else with a Nook you can transfer a book that you bought over to their Nook for 14 days.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Life is too short not to laugh at chicken jokes.

The expensive ones are on higher perches.

 

[Smellincoffee]

There are lots of laws that don't make sense, but you still obey them because it's what civilized people do. Civilization can't work unless we agree to abide by the laws. Individuals don't have the right to pick and choose which laws they think should apply to them. If you disagree with a law, then you try to change it within the system.

Laws change.

We are aware of that. But UNTIL it changes, the law is the law and must be followed.

While the law is useful in establishing procedures that make life a bit safer (right of way protocols, for instance), let's keep in mind the fact that laws exist for us and not the other way around. I believe in the individual rights of self determination and free conscience, not in the law. The law is just a convention. If the laws are good, I'll comply -- and if not, I won't. Maybe the state doesn't say I have the right to make that determination for myself, but I say I must. The state does not own me, and it would violate every right it claims to give me if that suited its purposes. Human will, not compliance to purported authority, keeps people free.

If downloading a copy of a book is not permitted by the publisher, then doing so is stealing, regardless of any attempt to justify such an action.

It may be stealing in some arbitary legal sense, but not in reality -- and it's reality that concerns me. The laws can go hangs themselves. If I lived in medieval Europe, I might break the law and "steal" by not giving the bishop a portion of my harvest every year -- but that's legalism, not reality.

Enabling a website that permits illegal downloads of intellectual property by patronizing it is itself harmful.

An understandable point.

You don't download ebooks because you don't like them, but you'd be completely justified in doing so if you liked ebooks?

Not at all. I will not steal the labor of anyone, whether it be a writer or the kid next door who offers to rake my yard. I don't download music or PC games that I have not paid or, nor would I download a book I hadn't paid for and in so doing, cheat the artist. I even feel a twinge of guilt when buying books used, because none of that money is actually going to the original artist. (I did a lot of used-book buying this year, but now I've finally caught up in TrekLit and have been buying new releases, including the three Typhon Pact books.)

If I read eBooks, I'd buy a copy for my reading pleasure but not think twice about making a backup on my computer in case of data corruption or if I misplaced the Kindle. I can't help my car being stolen or my magazine flying out of my hands and into a mud puddle, but in the case of digital property I can make redundancies to protect that which I have purchased. Perhaps those who created the property would rather I didn't, but we all act to preserve ourselves as much as possible.

 

[Scott Pearson]

It seems the torrent has been deleted. I find that amusing. Good work team.

YES!

Could the S&S people have responded that quickly? Or did the poster actually see this thread?

For all I know it could have just been moved to another site, but in any case a pirate was made to take notice and I count that as at least a small victory in the never-ending struggle.

Bazinga.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Over a torrent sea?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Nope.

Over a torrent? Si!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No, I'm afraid I'll never get over a torrent sea.

 

[David R. George III]

It may be stealing in some arbitary legal sense, but not in reality -- and it's reality that concerns me. The laws can go hangs themselves. If I lived in medieval Europe, I might break the law and "steal" by not giving the bishop a portion of my harvest every year -- but that's legalism, not reality.

Completely and utterly wrong. This is not a hypothetical case. We know for a fact that several individuals stole from Scott Pearson, Steve Mollmann and Michael Schuster, Gallery Books, and me. It is not arbitrary, it is reality. Those people stole intellectual property that the writers created and that the publisher published. They illegally took possession of copyrighted material without remunerating the company, and thereby not remunerating any of the writers, all of whom are due payment from sales. We can certainly debate legalism versus morality, the notions of fascism and justice and anarchy, but Mr. Pearson started this thread by identifying that his work and mine had been purloined.

I will not steal the labor of anyone, whether it be a writer or the kid next door who offers to rake my yard. I don't download music or PC games that I have not paid or, nor would I download a book I hadn't paid for and in so doing, cheat the artist. I even feel a twinge of guilt when buying books used, because none of that money is actually going to the original artist. (I did a lot of used-book buying this year, but now I've finally caught up in TrekLit and have been buying new releases, including the three Typhon Pact books.)

If I read eBooks, I'd buy a copy for my reading pleasure but not think twice about making a backup on my computer in case of data corruption or if I misplaced the Kindle. I can't help my car being stolen or my magazine flying out of my hands and into a mud puddle, but in the case of digital property I can make redundancies to protect that which I have purchased. Perhaps those who created the property would rather I didn't, but we all act to preserve ourselves as much as possible.

Bullshit. You are making justifications for your actions because it suits you to do so. I'm not impressed. If you purchase digital property and in so doing purchase the right to make backup copies, that's perfectly fine, but that's not actually what we're talking about. Let's assume the ridiculous for just a moment, that each and every one of the people who downloaded Myriad Universes: Shattered Light did so because they had already purchased a physical copy of the book, but they desperately wanted to make a backup copy because they could not trust themselves to safeguard their physical property (other than whatever device they stored the ebook on). They are still supporting a website that facilitates the theft of intellectual property. And as you agreed, that simply ain't cool.

 

[rafterman1701]

Unfortunately, I'm surrounded by a lot of people who download everything because it's easy. Too many people just think it's too hard to pay for things. I'm also in a country where piracy, particularly movies, is so prevalent that some major movie companies have pulled out of the country. There are areas where pirates sell their bootleg DVDs in front of police. They have stands and regular customers. I get downloading a free copy. People think files have no value. I don't get why people pay for bootlegs.
Stealing is stealing is stealing. You can't rationalize it. I want to pay for the things I like.

 

[Smellincoffee]

This is not a hypothetical case. We know for a fact that several individuals stole from Scott Pearson, Steve Mollmann and Michael Schuster, Gallery Books, and me.

I was not referring to those individuals who did actually download material without having paid for it.

If you purchase digital property and in so doing purchase the right to make backup copies, that's perfectly fine, but that's not actually what we're talking about.

That's what I'm talking about. Both of my responses in this thread have addressed the use of backups, aside from the pulp fiction case. I have never defended theft, but I do stand against the rather enthusiastic manner in which people are quick to condemn others as thieves.

 

[AN_D_K]

Maybe piracy for myriad universes is high because it isn't on kindle in the uk or presumably many places.

Offer a better service.

 

[Thrawn]

^ I think this is a point that a lot of people in here are overlooking.

Obviously, morally, it's difficult to argue against anyone saying that downloading these things online Is Wrong. Stealing any property, intellectual or otherwise, is illegal for a reason and immoral to at least some degree. No argument there.

But, practically speaking, it seems to me that if you ignore, oh say, college students - people culturally curious and extremely poor - that most piracy comes from the fact that getting it *legitimately* often is more difficult or restricted than getting it *free* illegally.

An example: I once researched getting a Blu-Ray drive for my desktop. This was before Blu-Ray won over HD-DVD, and so I would've been an early adopter - exactly what they should have wanted. But: I couldn't use it, because my monitor was not equipped to run their particular DRM scheme. So, I couldn't legitimately use the drive even if I'd paid for it in order to actually play Blu-Ray discs. This was an effort to deter piracy that was, in fact, broken before the discs even hit the market, and on any torrent site it was easy to find freely downloadable rips of all the movies I would've wanted to watch.

I didn't pirate them; don't get me wrong. But I'm saying, I really understood the temptation. The actual real product wouldn't work, in a 100% pointless effort to deter piracy, which did nothing except make the pirated product both easier to get and *actually better!*

I think you don't hear much about music piracy these days because of the iTunes store and the Amazon MP3 store both totally ditching DRM. It is now easier, by far, to get high-quality digital versions of albums legitimately than it is to get them pirated, because the pirated ones often suck, torrents are clumsy, and Amazon and iTunes will both automatically add to your iTunes library. I honestly believe that solves as much of the problem as will ever be solved right there.

YES: it is wrong to pirate. But the REASON people pirate is, I think, incorrectly assumed to usually be something like "I don't feel like paying for it". I would argue it is just as often, if not moreso, "the legitimate version is annoyingly limited / unavailable here / unreliable / DRM-ed / etc", which doesn't make stealing it any more morally acceptable, but it does at least make sense. And it's something that all the media forms except music and to a lesser extent gaming (with Steam) have done a shitty job of combating very well.

 

[BillJ]

Well, since I paid for my car, should I be able to take another car from the dealership, just in case something should happen to mine? No, it's not an exact analogy, but I think it's still apt. When you purchase something, anything, there is the risk that someday it might become lost, or stolen, or broken. Is it so much of a burden to safeguard your belongings that I think it condones theft? No, I do not.

To be fair, you have the opportunity to insure your car against it being lost or damaged.

 

[David R. George III]

I was not referring to those individuals who did actually download material without having paid for it.

Then on that point, we agree.

If you purchase digital property and in so doing purchase the right to make backup copies, that's perfectly fine, but that's not actually what we're talking about.

That's what I'm talking about. Both of my responses in this thread have addressed the use of backups, aside from the pulp fiction case. I have never defended theft, but I do stand against the rather enthusiastic manner in which people are quick to condemn others as thieves.

I do not enthusiastically label somebody a thief; I do so with a grave sense of disappointment, and as a matter of fact.

Some time ago, I purchased a version of Microsoft Office (Word unfortunately being the standard application for my business). The software license with it does not grant me the right to use it on more than one platform, so I don't, though I have more than one computer in the house.

If one purchases a paperback book--let's be specific and say Myriad Universes: Shattered Light--it does not come with a digital backup copy. If one then utilizes an illegal downloading website to make a backup copy, one is supporting that website. You may not view the downloading of that backup of theft, but it is; perhaps of greater importance than the stealing of the digital version of the book is the stealing of the writers' ability to ply their trade.

Maybe piracy for myriad universes is high because it isn't on kindle in the uk or presumably many places.

Offer a better service.

So if somebody doesn't like a service or product being offered, people are free to steal it. Yeah, I want to live in your world.

Obviously, morally, it's difficult to argue against anyone saying that downloading these things online Is Wrong. Stealing any property, intellectual or otherwise, is illegal for a reason and immoral to at least some degree. No argument there.

But, practically speaking, it seems to me that if you ignore, oh say, college students - people culturally curious and extremely poor - that most piracy comes from the fact that getting it *legitimately* often is more difficult or restricted than getting it *free* illegally.

I'm thunderstruck. Because it's easier to steal a digital version of a book than to purchase a digital or physical version, that makes it all right for somebody to steal? First of all, I can't even grant your premise. How much effort does it take to walk into a bookstore, pick up a book, and buy it? Forget even traveling to a bookstore; how difficult is it to order a physical or digital book from Amazon, or Barnes & Noble, or any other of the myriad online booksellers?

You know what? I was a poor college student once. It never occurred to me to use my economic situation as a rationale for stealing entertainment.

Well, since I paid for my car, should I be able to take another car from the dealership, just in case something should happen to mine? No, it's not an exact analogy, but I think it's still apt. When you purchase something, anything, there is the risk that someday it might become lost, or stolen, or broken. Is it so much of a burden to safeguard your belongings that I think it condones theft? No, I do not.

To be fair, you have the opportunity to insure your car against it being lost or damaged.

^ Not for free, I don't.

 

[BillJ]

^ Not for free, I don't.

Of course... everything has a price. But you're not paying full-market value either if your car is totaled and has to be replaced.

All I know is that back-up data is something that people have really grown to like and Pocket needs to be aware of that. I'm sure many people would pay a premium above cost (for a $9 dollar book something like a dollar) to have a digital back-up of something they purchase.

I won't buy a Disney movie anymore unless it is the deluxe Blu-ray edition for the pure fact that it gives me a pair of back-ups (DVD plus digital copy, which is vital with a three year old) with little in way of additional cost (under $5 dollars).

But yet again... what does the customer actually know?

 

[David R. George III]

^ Bill, I'm not defending any company's marketing or production policies. I'm not suggesting that book publishers shouldn't include digital backup copies. I am simply saying that none of that justifies stealing.

And the truth is that some booksellers, such as Amazon, allow buyers to download their digital book again for free if they lose their first copy. How easy is that? A free digital backup without even having to do anything.