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Stealing Trek Literature

See, the thing is, I have never bought a book after I borrowed it. I just read it and give it back, and when I want to read it again (which doesn't happen often), I borrow it again.

Well, I have definitely bought new copies of tattered books I've borrowed from friends (eg. "The Hobbit", "Watership Down") and libraries (eg. "Midnite", "Winnie-the-Pooh" and many other kidlit examples), and a few that were once assigned textbooks at high school/college (eg. "The Black Cloud", "The Lord of the Rings", "Dune", "1984") but I've also gotten so enthused by particular borrowed books, I've bought almost everything they've done ever since, as they came out new. David Gerrold and Larry Niven come to mind. I'm sure they appreciate my contribution to their royalties.

In fact, a few I've bought/read in MMPB ("The Hobbit", LotR, "Midnite", all of AA Milne), and then decided I really, really needed it in hardcover!
 
I wish there was some way of pressuring S&S to let libraries buy ebooks though. That ticks me off. Nothing can be done I guess, but still

It's my understanding that all eBook publishers are open to reaching satisfactory agreements with public libraries. Some of these negotiations will be tricky, as publishers and agents try to get the best deal for their clients, and some publishers will be watching as the first deals are made before they leap.
 
I wish there was some way of pressuring S&S to let libraries buy ebooks though. That ticks me off. Nothing can be done I guess, but still

It's my understanding that all eBook publishers are open to reaching satisfactory agreements with public libraries. Some of these negotiations will be tricky, as publishers and agents try to get the best deal for their clients, and some publishers will be watching as the first deals are made before they leap.

Thanks for that Therin. Good to know. Its not like I would buy fewer books if I had an ebook library option. In fact it would be like the regular library. I checked out Destiny Book 1 and as I was getting to the end I went out and bought 2 and 3 because I loved it so much and couldn't wait. Same thing with Errand of Fury actually.
 
I can't remember if it's been mentioned already but amazon are going to allow you to lend your ebooks out for 14 days. So you don't have it until they're done with it.

So it's nice to see things that are being done. along with that a kindle account can be on 6 devices so your household can all use it. It just makes piracy that little bit more pointless. It won't get any more sales but it does cause less support for the piracy.

Talking about stopping torrents, I did a bit of research on how available they are and saw David Mack posting on one saying something like "oi! You're stealing my work!" .. I think it's worth keeping that torrent up as a message than having it removed. Bravo.
I actually mentioned up thread that the Nook already lets you do this. I'm hoping one of these days to try it with my sister, but we have very different tastes so I don't know we'll ever actually find a book one of us wants that the other has.
 
^ My bad for misunderstanding your point. While I grant you that the situation of which you speak does occur and can be a singular motivation to pirate, I also believe that more often than not, the people who do engage in piracy do so simply because they can, and because they do not wish to pay for what they steal.

And if you're right, well then the entire industry is screwed. Because the genie won't go back in the bottle. It's out there, it's happening, and it can't be stopped. Those people will never ever buy from you again. Which sucks, but you may as well stop worrying about it as there's nothing you can do.

On the other hand, there's a whole bunch of people in this thread giving what are being termed 'excuses' for piracy. Here's another one: someone might download an ebook of something they already have in paperback as they want the convenience of reading it on their Kindle. Should they have to pay twice for it. I dunno. Then there's the people that want back-ups, or the people annoyed at prices being marked up in their country and so on...

The problem is if you say "you're still stealing from me, you're a dirty filthy pirate, begone" then it really doesn't help matters. We have to find constructive ways to bring these people back on side and not push them in to the hands of the pirates. It is a slippery slope from "I bought this in paperback so I'll illegally download the ebook" to "ah, I might just pass on the 'buying the paperback' part today". And a lot of people seem to want to give them a kick right off that slope.

I don't think it is as bad as all that. Steam and iTunes have shown that if you make the process of buying stuff legitimately more convenient than pirating, people switch over in huge numbers. It surprised me as well, but it's there. It's an odd but honest truth that a lot of pirates aren't tight, they're just lazy. The stats are there to back that up.

And could we all maybe stop with the moral absolutism? There's a scale here, and each person's sense of right or wrong is at a different point on the scale, but absolutism does not help.

I can legally scan my own copy of a book and stick it on my Kindle just like I can rip my CDs and put them on my iPod. If I download a copy from a pirate website instead, the end result for me is the same (just with less work) except for the bit where I support that website. But maybe I ran an ad-blocker when I visited that site, so in actual fact all I'm doing is costing them money in bandwidth. (leaving aside torrent files for a moment, whole other kettle of fish as they're impossible to download without supporting the distribution.

Likewise I can lend a book to a friend, or sell it on secondhand. No-one has a problem with that, as the book has been paid for once. Guess what? Often the pirated copies come from one guy buying the book, stripping the DRM, then sharing it with 1000s of other people. Book was paid for once. Same thing, it's a matter of scale.

Couple of other points:

Stuff gets muddled when we call copyright infringement 'stealing' or 'theft' - it might feel that way to the victims but it's not what it is. "You wouldn't steal a car" - no, but if I had a magic wand I could wave at your car, and make an exact replica for myself, I might do. It's a different crime. Let's face it, if it was theft, the original poster would have called the police already. Kind of depressing to see a whole bunch of people who's stock in trade is words get behind this attempt to change the meaning of words just because it sounds scarier than 'copyright infringement'. It's been tried before, it's why we ended up with 'piracy'.

I'm at a loss as to why you still want to characterize any of my actions, which got the right result, as foolish. It's like you're endeavoring to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ;)
Well maybe I'm just being horribly cynical, but it's worth remembering that this is a publicly viewable forum. I imagine the number of people that read it vastly outnumbers the amount of people that post. You've just advertised to a whole bunch of people with an interest in Trek Lit that your new book is available for free if they Google the right thing. A bunch of people posting in this thread have expressed surprise that such pirated books even exist. There's bound to at least have been a couple of lurkers who saw this then went off looking for it. Whether the net result leaves you up or down in terms of sales I wouldn't care to hazard a guess on.
 
Should they have to pay twice for it. I dunno. Then there's the people that want back-ups, or the people annoyed at prices being marked up in their country and so on...

I just bought myself a spare hardcopy MMPB of "Rough Beasts of Empire": one to read, one to keep in pristine condition (and maybe get autographed next time I catch up with David) - and US book prices do get marked up in my country.

And your point was?

if it was theft, the original poster would have called the police already.

Huh?

If someone photocopies an entire textbook in a public library, that's definitely a breach of copyright, but you don't call the police. It's not their area of specialty. You'd report the incident to the publisher, which is exactly what Scott did. And the torrent site vanished. So his actions seemingly had the desired effect.
 
I think part of the problem is due to the Agency 5 & Apple. What we have here is a real mess. eBooks are not neat and tidy. They are a mess overall. We have eBooks now that are priced higher then the paper copies (hello S&S). We have eBooks that may not be available in a format you need. We have eBooks with geo-restrictions so you may not be able to legally buy them in your country.

So what happens? People take to the net to find the eBook they want buy maybe cannot legally get or will not pay more then the paper copy for. So they find it and realize how easy it is to get. So they go try for more and more.

Yes, it is illegal. Yes, it is wrong. But, we do have to put some of the blame on the publishers who are driving customers to the net with their agency ways. I've seen eBooks priced at the hardcover level even when the MMPB is available.

A MMPB Star Trek book is listed at $7.99. The same eBook is listed at $7.99. S&S is one of the Agency 5. What does this mean for the eBook? This means that you get a 33% coupon from Borders in your inbox and you cannot apply it to the eBook. You see Kobo has a $2 off coupon in your inbox. You cannot apply it to any Star Trek eBooks. So what does this mean? It means the paper copy is cheaper then the eBook. You can get discounts on paper books. But on Star Trek eBooks, you cannot.

Some people are not going to pay more for an eBook then they do a paper copy. So, they will try to find it on the net. Is this a lost sale. Not always since they may not have bought it anyway due to the Agency pricing. But the Agency model is driving people to the net to get eBooks.

I've seen eBooks available in the UK that are not available in the US that I have wanted. Since I cannot legally purchase them, I have two choices, do without or go to the net to try to find them. Geo-restrictions are stupid. Take a paper book on Amazon.com. If I lived in the UK, I can buy a paper book on Amazon.com and it will be sent. Point of sale with paper books is where the shop is that I am buying the paper book. So if I am buying in the UK at Amazon.com, the point of sale is the US. If I go to Amazon.com to buy the same book as an eBook, the point of sale is where the computer is that I am using to try to purchase that eBook. That eBook is available for sale only in the USA and since the computer is in the UK, geo-restrictions bite me in the ass. Why is point of sale for paper books different then eBooks? That's part of the problem.

I've seen people not be able to download eBooks they have legally purchased because before they've downloaded them geo-restrictions happened or they needed to download again due to losing the eBook or needing to update the DRM. So this will drive people to the net to try to find a copy of the eBooks they've legally paid for buy cannot download.

We need to make the process simple. We need to make prices reasonable. We need to abolish the agency model and geo-restrictions. Because if this nonsense keep happening, the publishers may only have themselves to blame for lost revenue.

Not everyone who downloads eBooks from the net illegally does so because of the Agency 5 & Apple. But a lot do.

Apple allowed the creation of the Agency 5 buy signing a contract with them that states that no other eBook seller can sell their eBooks for less then Apple. And Apple is allowing them to set the price. So now we have a mess that needs to be sorted and sorted fast. More and more eBook Readers are being sold and we will have more and more eBook piracy.

Amazon also plays a part in eBook piracy. They make exclusive deals and if you have a reader that is not a Kindle, you go to the net to get the eBook because it won't work on your Sony, Kobo, nook, etc.

I know it is trivial now to strip the DRM off of most eBooks, but not everyone knows how to do it. The there is the converting of one format to another. Again, not everyone knows how to do it. So not having eBooks in the format needed is a reason some hit the net to find eBooks. On the net, you can probably find people to convert from AZW to ePub.

We dump the agency model. We dump geo-restrictions. We dump unreasonable prices. We dump exclusive eBook deals. We then keep piracy from rising so much.
 
You'd report the incident to the publisher, which is exactly what Scott did. And the torrent site vanished. So his actions seemingly had the desired effect.
You do realise you can find a 'free' copy of 'Shattered light' on the net in 5 minutes with google, yes?
Scott's actions had no measurable effect on the book's availability as a torent/etc.
 
You do realise you can find a 'free' copy of 'Shattered light' on the net in 5 minutes with google, yes?

Well, I guess the authors could really punish the scalpers, pirates and bootleggers by simply black banning the writing of new Star Trek novels. ;)

Why did you even bother looking for free copies?

You know, I don't particularly want to have free copies. I downloaded a free copy of the first "Titan" book because Marco promoted the special offer here, but I've never found the time to read it, and I'd already bought and read the MMPB anyway. I like my royalty percentages going to the authors who earned them.

Scott's actions had no measurable effect on the book's availability as a torent/etc.
I disagree. I reckon he started some thought processes going in some fans who may previously have been tempted to download an illegal copy. And it hopefully made Simon & Schuster more aware that there is still an ongoing problem.
 
You'd report the incident to the publisher, which is exactly what Scott did. And the torrent site vanished. So his actions seemingly had the desired effect.
You do realise you can find a 'free' copy of 'Shattered light' on the net in 5 minutes with google, yes?
Scott's actions had no measurable effect on the book's availability as a torent/etc.

Actually, it was precisely measurable: one less easy download link than before. Granted, a drop in the bucket, but as I find other sites I'll report them to S&S as well. Or perhaps some of the fans here who are finding all these illegal copies of Trek books can help us writers out by doing the right thing and reporting them. Here's the link: http://www.simonandschuster.biz/author-resources/anti-piracy-efforts

It's as easy as stealing a book!
 
Should they have to pay twice for it. I dunno. Then there's the people that want back-ups, or the people annoyed at prices being marked up in their country and so on...

I just bought myself a spare hardcopy MMPB of "Rough Beasts of Empire": one to read, one to keep in pristine condition (and maybe get autographed next time I catch up with David) - and US book prices do get marked up in my country.

And your point was?

Guess I should have been more concise. Bully for you, you're made of far sterner moral fibre and have more disposable income than other people. But then there's a whole bunch of other people on this thread that can't or won't buy two copies of every book. Saying "well you should because I do" doesn't help matters. They're not going to.

if it was theft, the original poster would have called the police already.

Huh?

If someone photocopies an entire textbook in a public library, that's definitely a breach of copyright, but you don't call the police. It's not their area of specialty. You'd report the incident to the publisher, which is exactly what Scott did. And the torrent site vanished. So his actions seemingly had the desired effect.

Purely arguing on the meaning of the word 'theft'. I have this odd notion that we should use the right words to describe the right things. If I went around to Scott's house in the middle of the night, broke in, and stole all his books, he'd report it to the police. He wouldn't contact the publisher of all those books to let them know, and then post how upset he was about it on this forum. Copyright infringement isn't theft. It's analogous to an extent but it's not the same thing.
 
Purely arguing on the meaning of the word 'theft'. I have this odd notion that we should use the right words to describe the right things. If I went around to Scott's house in the middle of the night, broke in, and stole all his books, he'd report it to the police. He wouldn't contact the publisher of all those books to let them know, and then post how upset he was about it on this forum. Copyright infringement isn't theft. It's analogous to an extent but it's not the same thing.

You can parse and spin the terms all you want, but when people download illegal copies of things, they have deprived the creators of monies they have a moral and legal right to expect. I think we all know that most people pirating these files have one thing in mind: getting something for free that they know full well they should pay for. That fits the spirit of theft if not the letter.
 
I reckon he started some thought processes going in some fans who may previously have been tempted to download an illegal copy.

I can at least prove this point for Scott. I've never downloaded a Trek book, but I have been a frequent downloader of other content in the past. I tried to write a few different responses in this thread justifying myself, but each of them sounded hollow. My primary justification has always been that I would never have paid for the content anyway, or already have, and just want it in a different format. And this thread leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I still believe that I haven't taken anything from anyone, that I'm not a thief, but I can't really back that up. And so I won't be doing that anymore.

So, Scott, your victory just got a bit more victorious. Let's hope there are hundreds like me who read this thread and have decided that illegally downloading content is not the way to go in the future.
 
I reckon he started some thought processes going in some fans who may previously have been tempted to download an illegal copy.

I can at least prove this point for Scott. I've never downloaded a Trek book, but I have been a frequent downloader of other content in the past. I tried to write a few different responses in this thread justifying myself, but each of them sounded hollow. My primary justification has always been that I would never have paid for the content anyway, or already have, and just want it in a different format. And this thread leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I still believe that I haven't taken anything from anyone, that I'm not a thief, but I can't really back that up. And so I won't be doing that anymore.

So, Scott, your victory just got a bit more victorious. Let's hope there are hundreds like me who read this thread and have decided that illegally downloading content is not the way to go in the future.

Thanks, that's great to hear. People who've downloaded illegal copies aren't monsters or career criminals, they've just fallen into a habit all too easy given new technologies. These are complicated times, so healthy debate, like this thread, is a good way to sort through the gray areas and the rationalizations and try to get to the heart of the issue.
 
Meanwhile, legitimate sales of e-books are on the rise, in some measures eclipsing hard copy, which shows that lots of people are embracing the new model and paying for nonphysical copies...
As an example, Zero Sum Game is ranked #11,011 in Books, and #5,075 in Kindle Books. More people are buying the eBook than the dead tree version.

I tried to buy the CoE anthology What's Past for my Kindle, but when I clicked on the Kindle version, it had only Remembrance of Things Past listed, not all of them so I was unsure of whether or not it was what it purported to be. Now, I could have gone to pirate the thing, but since I don't do that, I'm going to wait until I have more money and buy the dead tree version unless Amazon do actually have it available for the Kindle.

It goes back to the argument that some people resort to piracy because they want something now, not later. It is the major reason that films aren't out in one country/region before another sometimes months apart. More and more films, especially bigger ones, get worldwide releases which had cut down on film piracy to some extent. I would love to go to the movies more, but since I don't have the money, I don't. I could go and get the pirated movies but I don't do that kind of thing. I'll be able to buy it on DVD for less than it cost to see in the theater or I'll watch it on TV when it comes on in a year or two's time. 3D is not a major draw for me and doesn't impact me whatsoever.
 
Meanwhile, legitimate sales of e-books are on the rise, in some measures eclipsing hard copy, which shows that lots of people are embracing the new model and paying for nonphysical copies...
As an example, Zero Sum Game is ranked #11,011 in Books, and #5,075 in Kindle Books. More people are buying the eBook than the dead tree version.

I tried to buy the CoE anthology What's Past for my Kindle, but when I clicked on the Kindle version, it had only Remembrance of Things Past listed, not all of them so I was unsure of whether or not it was what it purported to be. Now, I could have gone to pirate the thing, but since I don't do that, I'm going to wait until I have more money and buy the dead tree version unless Amazon do actually have it available for the Kindle.

It goes back to the argument that some people resort to piracy because they want something now, not later. It is the major reason that films aren't out in one country/region before another sometimes months apart. More and more films, especially bigger ones, get worldwide releases which had cut down on film piracy to some extent. I would love to go to the movies more, but since I don't have the money, I don't. I could go and get the pirated movies but I don't do that kind of thing. I'll be able to buy it on DVD for less than it cost to see in the theater or I'll watch it on TV when it comes on in a year or two's time. 3D is not a major draw for me and doesn't impact me whatsoever.

Right, the only thing I pirate is episodes of Doctor Who we're annoyingly behind the UK transmission. I justify this to myself because I *always* buy the DVDs. Check my shelf, I have all of them. So really I don't need to, I just prefer not to wait. Am I hurting anyone here? I'd like to have the debate here, if I can be convinced I'm hurting anyone I'll stop. I think by buying the DVDs everyone involved is going to get paid anyway, am I right?
 
Sometimes people rob 7-11s because they're too impatient to have some cash. Sometimes people torrent a TV show because they're too impatient for it to get a legal, local release.

Bully for you, you're made of far sterner moral fibre and have more disposable income than other people. But then there's a whole bunch of other people on this thread that can't or won't buy two copies of every book.

Hahaha. Well, neither do I but this one has my name in it.

As we've seen, there are many who sadly, seemingly, don't buy any copies of any ST book, but they still compelled to own/read their torrented digital copies. That's stealing, whether the local constabulary can/will take action or not.
 
Meanwhile, legitimate sales of e-books are on the rise, in some measures eclipsing hard copy, which shows that lots of people are embracing the new model and paying for nonphysical copies...
As an example, Zero Sum Game is ranked #11,011 in Books, and #5,075 in Kindle Books. More people are buying the eBook than the dead tree version.

I tried to buy the CoE anthology What's Past for my Kindle, but when I clicked on the Kindle version, it had only Remembrance of Things Past listed, not all of them so I was unsure of whether or not it was what it purported to be. Now, I could have gone to pirate the thing, but since I don't do that, I'm going to wait until I have more money and buy the dead tree version unless Amazon do actually have it available for the Kindle.

It goes back to the argument that some people resort to piracy because they want something now, not later. It is the major reason that films aren't out in one country/region before another sometimes months apart. More and more films, especially bigger ones, get worldwide releases which had cut down on film piracy to some extent. I would love to go to the movies more, but since I don't have the money, I don't. I could go and get the pirated movies but I don't do that kind of thing. I'll be able to buy it on DVD for less than it cost to see in the theater or I'll watch it on TV when it comes on in a year or two's time. 3D is not a major draw for me and doesn't impact me whatsoever.

Right, the only thing I pirate is episodes of Doctor Who we're annoyingly behind the UK transmission. I justify this to myself because I *always* buy the DVDs. Check my shelf, I have all of them. So really I don't need to, I just prefer not to wait. Am I hurting anyone here? I'd like to have the debate here, if I can be convinced I'm hurting anyone I'll stop. I think by buying the DVDs everyone involved is going to get paid anyway, am I right?

BBC programs are probably the only kind you can get away with doing that and it not costing anyone money.

In the US, from a network perspective, if you watch a show via download, they're missing out on viewers, which drop ratings, which drop the price they can charge for ads, which results in a loss of profit.

With the BBC, since it's supported by license fees, and you don't live in the UK to begin with, you're not costing them money they would of had otherwise for the production AND since they publish their own DVDs, they make a direct profit when you purchase the discs later on.

Least that's the way it appears at first glance anyways...

Of course, when the BBC launches their international iPlayer in the next year or so, you'll probably be able to pay a yearly fee and get access to every BBC show the day after it airs in the UK for about 20 bucks a year.
 
...Zero Sum Game is ranked #11,011 in Books, and #5,075 in Kindle Books. More people are buying the eBook than the dead tree version.

It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that the Kindle version is doing better in relation to other Kindle books than the "dead tree" version is doing in relation to other "dead tree" books. We have no way of knowing how the Kindle version is selling in relation to the "dead tree" version.
 
...Zero Sum Game is ranked #11,011 in Books, and #5,075 in Kindle Books. More people are buying the eBook than the dead tree version.

It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that the Kindle version is doing better in relation to other Kindle books than the "dead tree" version is doing in relation to other "dead tree" books. We have no way of knowing how the Kindle version is selling in relation to the "dead tree" version.

This.
 
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