Vic made a comment about sorry for starting late due to technical difficulties. Maybe that cut down time for the Q&A. Dam Shame though.
STC Ep. 8: "Still Treads The Shadow" rating and discussion....
- Thread starter Warped9
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Vic made a comment about sorry for starting late due to technical difficulties. Maybe that cut down time for the Q&A. Dam Shame though.
Having just watched this a second time my overall impressions are a bit clearer. Also I first watched it on my iPad which left me with a slightly different impression than watching it again on my larger iMac.
In terms of overall execution this is still reasonably good and polished in of itself. My reservations haven't much to do with overall execution. They accomplish what they set out to do with a respectable degree of polish.
Having said that I come back to an old refrain: this doesn't strike me as a story TOS would likely have done. Or in the least done in this fashion given that it's meant as a direct followup to a previous story, which is something TOS almost never did yet STC does with a fair amount of regularity.
One thing that really stood out for me, as it has with previous STC episodes, is the tendency to borrow whole story ideas and even mimic moments directly from previous stories. The TWOK music cue struck me as weirdly out of place given the familiar style of TOS music. Kirk whispering the words, "the Defiant." exactly as Shatner said the same thing in "The Tholian Web." Kirk saying, "If they merge." exactly as Shatner said "If they meet." way back previously in "The Alternative Factor." Strung throughout the stories are instances of mimicking what was said or done before. It isn't a huge thing in itself, but when you add all the little callouts and borrowing of ideas it saps the sense of authenticity that is otherwise often felt in STC productions.
On second viewing the ship sequences looked better than I remember the first time around, but there were shots that looked much more TNG like in how they were choreographed. Finally, of course, was the level of detail to some of the space sequences that simply wouldn't have been there back in the day. Yes, they could have created some amazing matte paintings back then, but they wouldn't have been animated as they are today.
I still give it a Good rating for its overall execution, but I can't rate it as Excellent because it doesn't feel as original and engaging as it could have been.
In terms of overall execution this is still reasonably good and polished in of itself. My reservations haven't much to do with overall execution. They accomplish what they set out to do with a respectable degree of polish.
Having said that I come back to an old refrain: this doesn't strike me as a story TOS would likely have done. Or in the least done in this fashion given that it's meant as a direct followup to a previous story, which is something TOS almost never did yet STC does with a fair amount of regularity.
One thing that really stood out for me, as it has with previous STC episodes, is the tendency to borrow whole story ideas and even mimic moments directly from previous stories. The TWOK music cue struck me as weirdly out of place given the familiar style of TOS music. Kirk whispering the words, "the Defiant." exactly as Shatner said the same thing in "The Tholian Web." Kirk saying, "If they merge." exactly as Shatner said "If they meet." way back previously in "The Alternative Factor." Strung throughout the stories are instances of mimicking what was said or done before. It isn't a huge thing in itself, but when you add all the little callouts and borrowing of ideas it saps the sense of authenticity that is otherwise often felt in STC productions.
On second viewing the ship sequences looked better than I remember the first time around, but there were shots that looked much more TNG like in how they were choreographed. Finally, of course, was the level of detail to some of the space sequences that simply wouldn't have been there back in the day. Yes, they could have created some amazing matte paintings back then, but they wouldn't have been animated as they are today.
I still give it a Good rating for its overall execution, but I can't rate it as Excellent because it doesn't feel as original and engaging as it could have been.
I wasn't able to attend the premiere here in Dallas, but I did get to meet Vic the next day during the con. Man -- this guy is seriously charming. He was very warm and friendly, and spent a lot of time with each fan in line (most of whom I think were there for his anime voice work -- though there were a couple of us STC fans in the queue). Got an autographed photo, and he gave me a copy of the premiere poster, even though I wasn't at the premiere. I definitely recommend saying hi to Vic if you ever have the chance. Unfortunately, the con didn't bring Michele in for the show. :/
Fantastic episode. Other then the fan-dream of getting Shatner in the episode, I can't think of anything I would do differently. It definitely, imo, is the most TOS inspired and accurate- episode they have done since the first batch of 3. The sense of the unknown and the mystery, the character moments (like the call back to Lolani, concerning Kirk, Spock and the word "jinx") and some of McCoy's lines were just perfect. Vic is on a whole different playing field these days when it comes to portraying Prime Kirk. He embodies TOS Kirk for me now, its uncanny. I watched the episode immediately after The Tholian Web, and didn't miss a beat. The one episode ends with Kirk expressing the loneliness of being the sole inhabitant of that universe .... while this one picks up with that precise scenario. Kudos on all levels. I appreciate the cohesiveness of using Vic in both roles and the Deadly Years style make up, but still doubt I will ever be able to watch this episode without the voice in the back of my head going, *this should have been Shatner's swan song, this would have been *legendary.*....*
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I'm not surprised there's isn't much episode discussion. I really want to get into the swing of these and like them but this is the latest in a series of episodes that just seem to be re-writing TOS episodes. These sets and hairdos and throwbacks to the past are fine as a tribute in small doses but they don't work for me as a modern continuation of the series.
I guess I'll have to wait for Discovery for something fresh and new.
I want to acknowledge the work of some very enthusiastic and well-meaning people on this project. My opinion doesn't reflect on them personally.
I guess I'll have to wait for Discovery for something fresh and new.
I want to acknowledge the work of some very enthusiastic and well-meaning people on this project. My opinion doesn't reflect on them personally.
That's not the point of Continues, though. It's meant to be as if another season of TOS was produced during 1969-1970, not a modern follow-up or a tribute.
I'm really interested in the music cues, I didn't pick up on the TWOK cue, but it fit perfectly as an accompaniment for dementia or out of mind, out of body themes. Not sure how it was used in TWOK. Seems like they were pulling from a lot of different sources including "The Tholian Web" and "Doomsday Machine". I didn't see an Andy Farber directed orchestra credit , but a Woodwind soloist was credited. There's apparently quite a bit original music interspersed. I'd like to see a breakdown of it.
I don't know how Chris Doohan improves his channeling of his Dad, but even moreso in this episode. There are some early episodes where he temporarily breaks out of the brogue, or kind of strains with it, but he was nailing it on all cylinders this time. Still, my favorite is when he staggers out of the Jeffries tube, drunk in "Dragon", lol.
It was nice seeing the old Bones we know tearing into Spock for once in this series. I've been waiting for that one. Wish he did his happy bounce when he realized he'd won the battle when Spock gave in.
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I don't know how Chris Doohan improves his channeling of his Dad, but even moreso in this episode. There are some early episodes where he temporarily breaks out of the brogue, or kind of strains with it, but he was nailing it on all cylinders this time. Still, my favorite is when he staggers out of the Jeffries tube, drunk in "Dragon", lol.
It was nice seeing the old Bones we know tearing into Spock for once in this series. I've been waiting for that one. Wish he did his happy bounce when he realized he'd won the battle when Spock gave in.
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Except that's not what it is. For a lot of this series they are doing things the TOS writers would not have done at all.
- They inject references to things that would not yet exist for some decades to follow.
- They make efforts to "fix" characters to fit more contemporary sensibilities and expectations.
- They are following up stories which TOS would near certainly never have done.
- They inject snippets of contemporary style technobabble that simply didn't exist originally.
- They inject f/x to a degree that could not have been done originally even if TOS had had unlimited time and money.
- They are setting the stage for TMP when there is no way whatsoever the original writers could have had any foreknowledge of whatsoever.
- They borrow story ideas and elements from productions that would not exist for decades to come.
- They are heavily referential to things already familiar in TOS and which is something TOS hardly ever did.
- They write stories and characters more in the vein of TNG and other more contemporary Trek rather than how stories were written originally.
I have little doubt Vic and company (as well as many STC fans) see this as a valid continuation, but it is certainly not one that rings as truly authentic in pretending it's still 1969/70. I think they have come closer than anyone else, but they do a lot of things that ruin that pretension.
"Still Treads The Shadow" is well in keeping with the kind of story one expects to see published by Pocket Books, but it's highly unlikely TOS would have done this story or at least in this way back in 1969/70. And I can say that about most of the stories STC has done even though I'm a fan of the production.
There was a lengthy delay in starting the episode due to technical problems, and Judy came forward and took some questions. Apparently they weren't recorded, but I can summarize what she said if you're interested.No questions for Judy
Vic asked that people not record the episode so it wouldn't leak out early.
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Not at all. Particularly since there are no commercials and it doesn't drag.
I'm sorry but why do you see that as a problem? The world has changed, why stick ridgedly in the past? I respect you have different opinions but with the TMP thing they are expected to make it fit.
Definitely interested in what Judy had to say.
Because if it were meant to feel so authentic they wouldn't be so obvious about what they're doing.
There a lot of things I like about STC, but I can't ignore the things that keep it from feeling like a truly credible extension of TOS.
This started way back in "Pilgrim Of Eternity." I could let the proto holodeck go because the idea had been conceived during TOS and actually done in TAS. But creating the character of McKennah as ship's counselor was a no-no. That wouldn't have happened. And I like McKennah as a character and I really like the actress.
Still, I could let that slide some even though her presence affected the familiar character dynamics. Lines went to her that originally would have gone to Spock or McCoy. I will say they have used her sparingly and to no real detrimental effect story wise. And it helps she is a good actress.
"Pilgrim Of Eternity" was a good showcase of what STC could do and what they were aiming for. But the biggest issue was doing a following up story to a story that didn't need one and to indulge in something that TOS almost never did. Indeed they only did it twice: following up "The Cage" with the two-part "The Menagerie" (and it wasn't meant as a followup) and followup up "Mudd's Women" with "I, Mudd."
There were other quibbles regarding writing Kirk more like Picard and using contemporary style technobabble, but overall it was a good and respectable start.
But Ep. 1 would prove to be more of a template for what was to come than was initially believed. Easily half of STC's episodes have been followups. Polished execution notwithstanding TOS simply wouldn't have done that. And they certainly wouldn't have made a practice of referencing things that did not yet exist or foreshadowing events of which they had no knowledge whatsoever.
This is the stuff of conventional fanfic and novels published by Pocket Books. It's pure continuity porn.
It's not what the writers back in the day would have done. I can get behind slipping in a few new things that could have been done given the chance and resources. But any tangible sense of authenticity is blown when you keep dipping into a well that simply wouldn't have existed back in the day or indulge in practices the original creators wouldn't have done.
But, hey, doing followups is unquestionably easier than coming up with wholly original stories. No argument--that ain't easy.
I don't buy your thoughts about the introduction of McKennah. TOS was in serious trouble. If it would have been given another year major changes would have been forced onto it by the powers to be I would bet. One of those changes would have been the introduction of new characters. The most obvious given the time period would have been a good looking female who would have been given more dialog than McKennah and probably would have been on the bridge as a regular crewman. My guess is Sulu would get a promotion onto another ship and off the show. Given what we have heard about Shatner, that dialog would not have come out of his lines. I would actually like to see Michele get more lines as she is one of the best actors on STC. The few longer scenes she has had have been very good.
I agree Pilgrim of Eternity was a followup that probably did not need one but, Michael Forest was outstanding and so it worked great. A better first episode would have been Lolani, but we are not dealing with a standard TV production that is shooting an episode once a week and can semi-easily switch out the order. There are months between shoots trying to getting all the "volunteers" on the same schedule for a studio that has no heating or AC.
Few if any shows know when the end is coming. If TOS had been given another year and told to make major changes and bring the 5 year mission to an end who knows what we would have gotten. I hope it would be something close to what STC is doing. It would probably be less subtle is my guess. It would be interesting to know if STC had the funds originally to have 18 episodes what stories would they have done. I am sure Vic has a lot of story ideas.
You have no idea what would have been demanded. If TOS had been strong enough to continue into a fourth season there might well have been changes including a new female character, but what are the odds it would have been a ship' s "Counselor?" That is so obviously a sop to TNG fans.
But as I said you can let a few things slide when you're picking up the baton after a hiatus of forty-fifty years. But when you indulge in filming fanfic as opposed to aspirng to write the kind of stories TOS would unquestionably have done then you're playing a different game.
I think STC has generally done better than anyone else out there, but no one can sit here and claim what they have done is beyond question.
Judy said she had never written anything before Star Trek, but this was how she got started: As a young woman she longed to go to Africa and do archaeology with Louis Leakey, so she came up to him after a speech he gave and told him as much. Leakey said she could come with him, but she'd need to raise $2,500 for the trip. Then Judy got in touch with someone and asked how much it paid to "write a Star Trek" and she was told $2,500. Her contact got her a few old scripts to look at and she wrote her first effort, which was a McCoy love story. Her contact, whoever that was, didn't think much of the story but liked her writing enough to put her in touch with an agent.
Her original draft of "The Tholian Web" did not include the subplot about people going insane in the spatial interphase; this was added by someone else (probably not Chet Richards, but someone with the show) to add tension, and she hated it. She also hated the way the Tholians were depicted in Enterprise. She imagined them as crystalline lifeforms based on silicon, and thought TOS got their appearance just right.
She commented that she thought Fred Freiberger was a great producer because he let the authors write their own stories instead of rewriting them from top to bottom (mentioning Harlan Ellison's story as an example of the latter).
That's all I can remember. If I recall anything else, I'll add it.
Despite their stated mission, I couldn't really care less how close STC hews to the original Trek remit (I mean, every time they add a new piece to this underlying arc they seem to be developing, they're drifting farther away from how '60s TV worked), but I'm well and truly tired of sequels/stories built on the framework of prior TOS episodes. This one works better than most of them, but enough already. It's quite obvious that the STC crew are not interested in the action-adventure format that was Trek's bread and butter, but want to deal in heavy allegory. Fair enough, I suppose, but I'd rather see something original and rip-roaring, along the lines of "The Tressaurian Intersection."