STC Ep. 6: "Come Not Between The Dragons" grading and discussion....(possible spoilers)

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Vic, Todd, and Chuck aren't Bill, Leonard, and De. No one could be what the original triumvirate was. But the STC guys do have their own chemistry, and for me it works.

Probably comes partially from the fact that they were already friends before STC.

Re: Vic's performance.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, he's certainly charismatic in the role. He has presences and it feels as if he owns the scenes he is in. That being said, Vic is prone to channeling a little too much Shatner in his performance. It smacks of too much imitation and not bringing enough of himself to the performance.

The thing is, if you've ever heard him tell his life story, Vic says to a certain extent he modeled not only his acting style but his own adult personality on Shatner's Captain Kirk. So he's slightly being Shatner even when he's being himself.

 

[Treadwell]

If anyone thinks his STC performance is parody, they haven't seen Vic's full bore, Kevin Pollock-level Shatner impression.

Of all the original TOS characters, Kirk is the most inseparable from his actor. If you're not putting a little Shatner into the performance, you aren't doing Kirk.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

If anyone thinks his STC performance is parody, they haven't seen Vic's full bore, Kevin Pollock-level Shatner impression.

Of all the original TOS characters, Kirk is the most inseparable from his actor. If you're not putting a little Shatner into the performance, you aren't doing Kirk.

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[Warped9]

I wlll say there is a line in Ep. 6 that Kirk delivers that grates on my nerves. I simply cannot see in anyway one of the TOS creative staff writing that line for Kirk or Shatner's Kirk delivering that line. It is almost as if Kirk were speaking to "the fourth wall" directly and stepping out of character for an instant. It really bugs me. It is the same scene where I think Spock expresses himself in an uncharacteristic way.

As a result what isn't a bad scene I feel is ruined by sloppy writing. I can't imagine what they were thinking. Particularly given Vic Mignogna's obvious respect and admiration for TOS and its characters.

Indeed I have found it odd since the first episode that with a repeated intent to respect and recreate TOS as closely as possible that they can't resist (or perhaps recognize) injecting TNG style writing into their stories and to some extent rationalizing/excusing/deconstructing the TOS Kirk character.

In "Pilgrim For Eternity" Kirk is repeatedly looking for a consensus on what to do with Apollo. TOS Kirk sought opinion and advice, but only once did he actually take a vote ("Return To Tomorrow") and that situation was distinctly different from "Pilgrim For Eternity." Everything else about Vic's Kirk in that story worked for me, but that one aspect didn't click.

I still think "Lolani" is still STC's best effort so far. So much of it was like TOS. I can even accept the story's ending given Kirk found himself in a believable even if unpleasant situation of being ordered to give Lolani up. For me the weakness in this story was not knowing why Starfleet (and in extent the Federation) were so willing to cater to the Orions when they had been previously establised (in TOS) as essentially a rogue like nation/culture that condoned open piracy and outlawry. Maybe here they were trying a bit too much to connect the dots with ENT.

Kirk and other characters get a pass in "Fairest Of Them All" simply because we are seeing the Mirror Universe characters in action rather than the Prime characters. Also because "Fairest Of Them All," while entertaining, was pure fan indulgence given TOS would likely never do such a followup story. Candidly I don't think they would have done a followup to Apollo either, but they managed to make it credible.

"The White Iris" was STC's weakest story, in my opinion, and really sets out to treat Kirk in a manner more suitable to writing for Picard than Kirk. This was a very TNG type story. We had already seen Kirk dealing with guilt in "Obsession" and it helped propel the story. But here it is all about trying to talk about Kirk's feelings over past loves. I know a lot of fans seem to like this episode, but I can't get away from believing that such a story would never have been written during TOS' production. More than giving us a TOS era Counselor, glimpsing a prototype holodeck or slipping in unnecessary callouts to post TOS productions this story really stepped away from being convincingly like TOS. It was a respectable effort in terms of execution, but the idea for it was questionable. In the least the guide to writing a more introspective Kirk should be taken from the films TWOK, TSFS, TFF and TUC rather than TNG. TOS Kirk could be introspective, but making hm an emotional wreck doesn't work, particularly the way it was done here.

I have only two serious quibbles for "Divided We Stand." The reveal is given up too soon and Kirk is a bit too "rah, rah" in his campfire speech. Your milage may vary.

And now we have "Come Not Between The Dragons" where most everything is pretty good until Kirk utters a few words that struck me as depicting a somewhat pompous side to him that I simply can't see as part of Kirk's character. No sir, it doesn't work. It's only for a few seconds and doesn't undermine the good stuff in this story, but it undermines Kirk's character.

Please stop trying to write Kirk like Picard or to write TOS like TNG. I apologize if I come across as too emphatic, but it's a point I think needs to be made.

 

[Danlav05]

I wlll say there is a line in Ep. 6 that Kirk delivers that grates on my nerves. I simply cannot see in anyway one of the TOS creative staff writing that line for Kirk or Shatner's Kirk delivering that line. It is almost as if Kirk were speaking to "the fourth wall" directly and stepping out of character for an instant. It really bugs me. It is the same scene where I think Spock expresses himself in an uncharacteristic way.

As a result what isn't a bad scene I feel is ruined by sloppy writing. I can't imagine what they were thinking. Particularly given Vic Mignogna's obvious respect and admiration for TOS and its characters.

Indeed I have found it odd since the first episode that with a repeated intent to respect and recreate TOS as closely as possible that they can't resist (or perhaps recognize) injecting TNG style writing into their stories and to some extent rationalizing/excusing/deconstructing the TOS Kirk character.

In "Pilgrim For Eternity" Kirk is repeatedly looking for a consensus on what to do with Apollo. TOS Kirk sought opinion and advice, but only once did he actually take a vote ("Return To Tomorrow") and that situation was distinctly different from "Pilgrim For Eternity." Everything else about Vic's Kirk in that story worked for me, but that one aspect didn't click.

I still think "Lolani" is still STC's best effort so far. So much of it was like TOS. I can even accept the story's ending given Kirk found himself in a believable even if unpleasant situation of being ordered to give Lolani up. For me the weakness in this story was not knowing why Starfleet (and in extent the Federation) were so willing to cater to the Orions when they had been previously establised (in TOS) as essentially a rogue like nation/culture that condoned open piracy and outlawry. Maybe here they were trying a bit too much to connect the dots with ENT.

Kirk and other characters get a pass in "Fairest Of Them All" simply because we are seeing the Mirror Universe characters in action rather than the Prime characters. Also because "Fairest Of Them All," while entertaining, was pure fan indulgence given TOS would likely never do such a followup story. Candidly I don't think they would have done a followup to Apollo either, but they managed to make it credible.

"The White Iris" was STC's weakest story, in my opinion, and really sets out to treat Kirk in a manner more suitable to writing for Picard than Kirk. This was a very TNG type story. We had already seen Kirk dealing with guilt in "Obsession" and it helped propel the story. But here it is all about trying to talk about Kirk's feelings over past loves. I know a lot of fans seem to like this episode, but I can't get away from believing that such a story would never have been written during TOS' production. More than giving us a TOS era Counselor, glimpsing a prototype holodeck or slipping in unnecessary callouts to post TOS productions this story really stepped away from being convincingly like TOS. It was a respectable effort in terms of execution, but the idea for it was questionable. In the least the guide to writing a more introspective Kirk should be taken from the films TWOK, TSFS, TFF and TUC rather than TNG. TOS Kirk could be introspective, but making hm an emotional wreck doesn't work, particularly the way it was done here.

I have only two serious quibbles for "Divided We Stand." The reveal is given up too soon and Kirk is a bit too "rah, rah" in his campfire speech. Your milage may vary.

And now we have "Come Not Between The Dragons" where most everything is pretty good until Kirk utters a few words that struck me as depicting a somewhat pompous side to him that I simply can't see as part of Kirk's character. No sir, it doesn't work. It's only for a few seconds and doesn't undermine the good stuff in this story, but it undermines Kirk's character.

Please stop trying to write Kirk like Picard or to write TOS like TNG. I apologize if I come across as too emphatic, but it's a point I think needs to be made.

I notice you're very nitpicking on the comparisons to Movie era Kirk/ENT/TNG/modern dialogue :P You really want to be exact 60s

 

[Warped9]

^^ It will never be exactly the same and thats fine given we have different writers and actors separated by fifty years and changes in society and perspectives. But sometimes the differences are too jarring when it has been repeatedly stated they want to recreate TOS as closely as possible.

Well if so then stop sticking things into it that obviously don't gel with the original source materiel. Yeah, some concession might need to be made, but there can be too much.

There are things in STC that I don't think belong, but when everything else works I can let it slide. But sometime certain things grate and unnecessarily.

I freely admit i don't like the connect-the-dot callouts to post TOS productions. It's a staple of fanfic and what I think of as continuity porn to show off how knowledgeable one is of Trek minutae. It's unnecessarily cute and it's something we wouldn't have seen in actual TOS episodes because none of that other stuff would have existed yet or even have been an idea.

But I also understand I'm likely in the minority here because a lot of fans like the connect-the-dots stuff. If they keep the references vague and indirect (which they sometimes don't) then I can live with it. Mentioning Xindi or a specific class of Andorian cruiser or something along thise lines is stepping outside the sense of authenticity they claim they want to recreate.

 

[9gs]

^^ It will never be exactly the same and thats fine given we have different writers and actors separated by fifty years and changes in society and perspectives. But sometimes the differences are too jarring when it has been repeatedly stated they want to recreate TOS as closely as possible.

Well if so then stop sticking things into it that obviously don't gel with the original source materiel. Yeah, some concession might need to be made, but there can be too much.

There are things in STC that I don't think belong, but when everything else works I can let it slide. But sometime certain things grate and unnecessarily.

I freely admit i don't like the connect-the-dot callouts to post TOS productions. It's a staple of fanfic and what I think of as continuity porn to show off how knowledgeable one is of Trek minutae. It's unnecessarily cute and it's something we wouldn't have seen in actual TOS episodes because none of that other stuff would have existed yet or even have been an idea.

But I also understand I'm likely in the minority here because a lot of fans like the connect-the-dots stuff. If they keep the references vague and indirect (which they sometimes don't) then I can live with it. Mentioning Xindi or a specific class of Andorian cruiser or something along thise lines is stepping outside the sense of authenticity they claim they want to recreate.

You have a very critical eye. Not saying thats a bad thing just that you notice stuff that would slip by 90% of the audience when its shown at the convention. Also, who is to say if they had a 22 episode 4th or even 5th season we would not have seen followup stories or more references to previous missions/stories.

 

[Warped9]

^^ They did have references on occasion to previous stories, but certainly not to films and series that wouldn't be produced until decades later.

Whether there might have been followups in a hypothetical fourth season is an open question, but given the precedent of the second and third seasons I think it highly unlikely.

Some people cite TAS as having followup stories. Yet two of the most remembered ("Mudd's Passion" and "More Tribbles, More Troubles") were among the weakest of TAS. And since STC has publicly stated they are not openly acknowledging TAS then it's hard to then use it as a precedent.

Hey, ninety percent of it is in execution. "Pilgrim Of Eternity" and "Fairest Of Them All" were followups that were quite well done overall. In that light I'm perfectly fine with them and I enjoyed them. I don't mean it as a harsh criticism of them just because they're followups--I'm only stating I think it unlikely TOS would have done such stories.

 

[Zaminhon]

If TOS can throw out such bizarre and dated references such as "dipping little girls' pigtails in inkwells", I can give STC a pass on contemporizing a few elements.

 

[Warped9]

If TOS can throw out such bizarre and dated references such as "dipping little girls' pigtails in inkwells", I can give STC a pass on contemporizing a few elements.

Ya think?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I wlll say there is a line in Ep. 6 that Kirk delivers that grates on my nerves. I simply cannot see in anyway one of the TOS creative staff writing that line for Kirk or Shatner's Kirk delivering that line. It is almost as if Kirk were speaking to "the fourth wall" directly and stepping out of character for an instant. It really bugs me. It is the same scene where I think Spock expresses himself in an uncharacteristic way.

As a result what isn't a bad scene I feel is ruined by sloppy writing. I can't imagine what they were thinking. Particularly given Vic Mignogna's obvious respect and admiration for TOS and its characters.

Indeed I have found it odd since the first episode that with a repeated intent to respect and recreate TOS as closely as possible that they can't resist (or perhaps recognize) injecting TNG style writing into their stories and to some extent rationalizing/excusing/deconstructing the TOS Kirk character.

In "Pilgrim For Eternity" Kirk is repeatedly looking for a consensus on what to do with Apollo. TOS Kirk sought opinion and advice, but only once did he actually take a vote ("Return To Tomorrow") and that situation was distinctly different from "Pilgrim For Eternity." Everything else about Vic's Kirk in that story worked for me, but that one aspect didn't click.

I still think "Lolani" is still STC's best effort so far. So much of it was like TOS. I can even accept the story's ending given Kirk found himself in a believable even if unpleasant situation of being ordered to give Lolani up. For me the weakness in this story was not knowing why Starfleet (and in extent the Federation) were so willing to cater to the Orions when they had been previously establised (in TOS) as essentially a rogue like nation/culture that condoned open piracy and outlawry. Maybe here they were trying a bit too much to connect the dots with ENT.

Kirk and other characters get a pass in "Fairest Of Them All" simply because we are seeing the Mirror Universe characters in action rather than the Prime characters. Also because "Fairest Of Them All," while entertaining, was pure fan indulgence given TOS would likely never do such a followup story. Candidly I don't think they would have done a followup to Apollo either, but they managed to make it credible.

"The White Iris" was STC's weakest story, in my opinion, and really sets out to treat Kirk in a manner more suitable to writing for Picard than Kirk. This was a very TNG type story. We had already seen Kirk dealing with guilt in "Obsession" and it helped propel the story. But here it is all about trying to talk about Kirk's feelings over past loves. I know a lot of fans seem to like this episode, but I can't get away from believing that such a story would never have been written during TOS' production. More than giving us a TOS era Counselor, glimpsing a prototype holodeck or slipping in unnecessary callouts to post TOS productions this story really stepped away from being convincingly like TOS. It was a respectable effort in terms of execution, but the idea for it was questionable. In the least the guide to writing a more introspective Kirk should be taken from the films TWOK, TSFS, TFF and TUC rather than TNG. TOS Kirk could be introspective, but making hm an emotional wreck doesn't work, particularly the way it was done here.

I have only two serious quibbles for "Divided We Stand." The reveal is given up too soon and Kirk is a bit too "rah, rah" in his campfire speech. Your milage may vary.

And now we have "Come Not Between The Dragons" where most everything is pretty good until Kirk utters a few words that struck me as depicting a somewhat pompous side to him that I simply can't see as part of Kirk's character. No sir, it doesn't work. It's only for a few seconds and doesn't undermine the good stuff in this story, but it undermines Kirk's character.

Please stop trying to write Kirk like Picard or to write TOS like TNG. I apologize if I come across as too emphatic, but it's a point I think needs to be made.

This is my problem with STC as well. Kirk isn't Kirk.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I think he is most of the time, but maybe the current writers don't have the same focus and perspective on the characters of TOS' creative staff back in the day as well as Shatner's take on the character.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

There has been an aspect there of not just paying tribute to TOS but also sometimes trying to correct its perceived imperfections.

"Lolani" seems to be in large part a reaction against the tendency toward an objectifying portrayal of the Orion slave girls. "The White Iris" strives to show that Kirk has a conscience concerning his romantic escapades (though we knew this already in the cases of Rayna, Edith, and Miramanee). Even "Pilgrim of Eternity" and "Fairest of Them All" are redemption sequels, which arguably represent a similar correction applied to Apollo and the crew of the ISS Enterprise. The addition of more prominent female crew is another sort of modern correction.

But I think this element in STC is not a criticism so much as a manifestation of love for TOS, the natural tendency of people to want to perfect the thing they love. Maybe it's hard to avoid that impulse in a fan film.

 

[GSchnitzer]

^^ They did have references on occasion to previous stories, but certainly not to films and series that wouldn't be produced until decades later.

Well, Kirk and McCoy were defended by a "General Worf" in Star Trek VI. And peace talks were at Camp Khitomer.

When there was a known Star Trek franchise future plot development, they would sometimes connect those dots.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Then there was Generations, the ultimate dot-connector.

How the TOS Film Franchise Devolved into Fanfilmery...

 

[mos6507]

I sense that with STC Vic is more interested in furthering a progressive moralistic message (from a modern perspective) than maintaining the classic characterizations beat-for-beat. Episodes like White Iris feel like he sees integral elements of TOS (like Kirk's horndog behavior) that clash with his ideal and therefore need retconning. I'm personally OK with this as it has the effect of modernizing the writing while holding onto the retro appeal of the look and feel, but I can understand how it might bug some people.

 

[Warped9]

Well, Kirk and McCoy were defended by a "General Worf" in Star Trek VI. And peace talks were at Camp Khitomer.

When there was a known Star Trek franchise future plot development, they would sometimes connect those dots.

Yes, but those films were concurrent with what was being produced on television. But it flies in the face of repeatedly saying, "We want to recreate that feeling we had when this show was first being watched originally and in the earliest years of syndication."

 

[STEPhon IT]

This is my problem with STC as well. Kirk isn't Kirk.

It's Vic Mignogna's Kirk!

 

[STEPhon IT]

Well, Kirk and McCoy were defended by a "General Worf" in Star Trek VI. And peace talks were at Camp Khitomer.

When there was a known Star Trek franchise future plot development, they would sometimes connect those dots.

Colonel Worf.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I sense that with STC Vic is more interested in furthering a progressive moralistic message (from a modern perspective) than maintaining the classic characterizations beat-for-beat. Episodes like White Iris feel like he sees integral elements of TOS (like Kirk's horndog behavior) that clash with his ideal and therefore need retconning. I'm personally OK with this as it has the effect of modernizing the writing while holding onto the retro appeal of the look and feel, but I can understand how it might bug some people.

Then he's not faithfully interpreting the original Star Trek series, and another reason why "Starship Exeter" gets the gold star in fanfilms. There's no need to make a fan series claiming it's being accurate but is failing on the writing process by not embracing what was done. Too many times these fan-projects, even Hollywood themselves, feel the need to correct what never had to be corrected. It's make believe, there's no need to sh*t on what was done just to make their accomplishments appear better.