STC Ep. 6: "Come Not Between The Dragons" grading and discussion....(possible spoilers)

[Warped9]

Now that some have been able to view this episode perhaps we can start some discussion, at least in vague terms until the weekend of May 28th when the episode will be widely released and available. Until then lets try to avoid spoilers or at least keep them to a minimum in fairness to those who haven't yet seen the episode.

I think we can keep this rather simple in terms of grading:

1/5 = Bad
2/5 = Poor
3/5 = Fair
4/5 = Good
5/5 = Excellent


I've already watched the episode twice and I will watch it again to clarify some of my own opinions and write a proper review. But I won't share that review publicly until after May 28th. That gives me two weeks to compose my review.

 

[Warped9]

Overall I liked this episode although there are always quibbles in terms of criticism. Even something excellent can be criticized. And here most of my criticisms are minor and rather nitpicky and echo similar criticisms I've made before regarding STC's productions.

My strongest nitpick is in regard to dialogue. Every once in awhile a very contemporary sounding phrase, expression or terminology find its way into a character's dialogue that really stands out and doesn't ring true to the character or the familiar TOS universe. Granted the actors are portraying interpretations of the TOS characters and so a bit of leeway can be allowed, but sometimes the instance can be too jarring. Your mileage could vary on this.

This can also apply to a character's general manner of expressing themselves. We have a sense of not so much what a character might say but more how they generally might say it. Again your mileage may vary.

For now I will refrain from any other criticism because I feel that could tread into spoiler territory and it could also be seen as particularly subjective. I can say that this criticism is what prevents me from rating the episode as excellent even though I think there are excellent things in the episode.


Visually this episode is, once again, first-rate and continues STC's generally high standrads in recreating the look and ambience of TOS. This time around I particularly liked the lighting which felt moodier and rather like first season TOS. Doug Drexler again gives us a gorgeous looking Enterprise that finds the right balance between respecting the original aesthetic while allowing for something that will stand up to contemporary viewing. I don't think there is much in this episode that couldn't have been done back in 1969/70 if we assume the conceit of TOS somehow managing a bit extra time and money. I can also say I didn't find any obvious call-outs to other post-TOS productions. I found it quite self-contained.

I regret that they--again--really don't get offship in this story, but I don't think it detracts from the story in any way.

The music is once again a nice mixture of familiar TOS cues and new original music in a similar style.

The cast performances generally continue to get better each time around with the occasional exception of dialogue I might feel didn't sound right from a character. We also get to see Uhura do more in this episode and off the bridge. Lt. Smith also has some good moments. In some respects this episode harkens back to first season TOS in terms of us seeing more of the secondary characters. In extent it makes STC feel more like an ensemble show than TOS actually was.

Finally I can say that this story wasn't quite what I was expecting based on the still images that had been released over the past weeks and months. Even the teaser trailer made me think this might play out differently.

Whether that is disappointing or not is left to the individual.

 

[Newnham]

So, without wishing to spoil things, do you think that they really needed to polish the script more? Thats the aspect of STC that I don't like, the writing.. Too much TNG terminology..

 

[STEPhon IT]

That was a major critique I've had since the beginning of STC. Heck, I had that problem with ST: Enterprise. Another reason why I loved Starship Exeter soooo much because it doesn't try to be smarter than the terminology and lingo broadcast by Producers & writers from the 60's. It just embraces what Star Trek was... about adventure not about REAL SCIENCE.

 

[Newnham]

i agree.

 

[9gs]

No one coud watch this episode and give it a 1. If you did you are a dick who probably gave City on The Edge of Forever a 3.

 

[Newnham]

Until I've seen it, i can't rate it. Please don't presume how I will or won't rate it. I'm not going to the sort of person who will slavishly rate it a 5 as a matter of course.

It might be good, it might be utter tosh and I'll utterly hate it. I want to have a subjective point of view..

I've watched the other episodes and have enjoyed them to a degree, but I've not thought of them as masterpieces.. As i said upthread, the writing throws me off..

 

[urbandefault]

If this episode "continues" the same quality I've seen in the previous five, I'll enjoy it just as much as I did the others.

From the teaser, I have no reason to doubt that it will be just as good.

 

[Newnham]

Then I'm not going to toe the party line.. I'm going to wait and see, if I don't like it then I don't like it. I can forgive a lot of things. Sets, costumes, effects, even the acting.. But the script is the main thing that they must get right, otherwise it doesn't work.. And at the moment, the writing isn't working.

 

[urbandefault]

Then I'm not going to toe the party line.. I'm going to wait and see, if I don't like it then I don't like it. I can forgive a lot of things. Sets, costumes, effects, even the acting.. But the script is the main thing that they must get right, otherwise it doesn't work.. And at the moment, the writing isn't working.

Party line?

No one expects you to "like" something you don't like. I don't know where you got that idea. This is not an Axanar fan group.

 

[Newnham]

From the tone of your post.. Maybe I read it wrong..

 

[Warped9]

So, without wishing to spoil things, do you think that they really needed to polish the script more? Thats the aspect of STC that I don't like, the writing.. Too much TNG terminology..

And I have similar criticisms in this regard. I think they could tell the same story and say essentially the same things without using contemporay Trek style terminology.

Small example: thrusters. This was never used until we heard it in TMP. It's minor, but nowhere is there any indication the TOS E used this kind of tech. Another term could be warp core--something else not used until TNG. These are small things, but they are something I find jarring.

I also found some of Spock's dialogue out of character at one point. To my ears it just didn't sound like how he would express himself. On that note I found a bit of Kirk's dialogue (in the same scene) a bit too self-conscious and out of character as well.

This has been a somewhat minor running annoyance throughout all the STC episodes when considering STC's repeated intent to be as faithful to TOS as possible as if these episodes had been filmed in 1969/70. I don't think it's enough to tarnish the rest of the production, but perhaps I notice it more because everything else is generally done so well.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I also found some of Spock's dialogue out of character at one point. To my ears it just didn't sound like how he would express himself. On that note I found a bit of Kirk's dialogue (in the same scene) a bit too self-conscious and out of character as well.

Here is the danger for artists who claimed they're honoring the original source and then make it their own. I'd been hammered numerous times for appreciating Quinto's Spock bc it's nothing like Nimoy and the writing and directing is embracing it, the same goes with Pine's Kirk.

Vic is completely pulling a Shatner, his choice, but I think he's a good enough actor where he can be HIS OWN Kirk, while Haberkorn's Spock is trying to embrace Nimoy but also make it his own. It doesn't work and viewers see it with his performances. I think he just have to go for it. He's the character now and just go with it. STC and New Voyages or Phase II this week comes very close to parody when they monkey off of the famous actors who played the roles.

 

[Newnham]

I would prefer that the chap playing Kirk plays his own Kirk.. Not trying to be Shatner.. Doesn't work for me.

And as I said upthread, I can forgive a lot of things.. But if the story doesn't work then I can't forgive that. The story is key, and the rest of the production follows on from that.

I'm surprised though that after 6 stories, the scripts still aren't up to scratch.

 

[Warped9]

The thing is I don't see the STC cast imitating or parodying the TOS cast, but there are occasional resonances of the original cast. There are differences. It's when they stray widely out if character that it bugs me.

 

[Newnham]

Exactly right.. I can't get on with Vic as Kirk.. He just doesn't do it for me.. Just my preference.

They seriously need a script editor to go through and make sure things look and sound right.

 

[Warped9]

Exactly right.. I can't get on with Vic as Kirk.. He just doesn't do it for me.. Probably as he is trying to imitate Shatner..

No, he's not. He is certainly channeling a measure of Kirk's mannerisms, but there are differences.

I like Vic as Kirk, far better than others who have played the character (excluding Shatner, of course). I certainly don't like Pine's Kirk, but that has more to do with the way Kirk is portrayed in JJtrek, as a dislikable jerk. Ditto with Quinto's Spock and the rest of the regular cast. I fully admit my opinion is influenced by the fact I dislike so much--practically everything--about JJtrek.

But I don't need to defend the STC cast. Like anything else you either like them or you don't.

 

[Newnham]

I understand.. I'll have to watch it and make my own mind up.. However my thoughts will be informed by what I've seen previously.. Some of it wasn't bad and some of it wasn't very good.

 

[Newnham]

I hope that the aspect we don't like does improve.. But to be honest, if they haven't sorted it out by episode 6, then I don't think they will.

 

[Warped9]

As fans there can be an irresistable temptation to put something we like into a place where it doesn't eally belong. It's not a deal breaker, but it is noticeable. Fans have been doing this in fan fiction for decades and fanfilms are really just an extension of fanfic.