Started Out Wrong and They Fixed It

[ZapBrannigan]

I'll tell you what started out wrong and they fixed it:

• The Keeper's voice in "The Cage" was originally just Malachi Throne. For "The Menagerie," they adjusted it electronically to be weird and alien sounding, and that was a huge improvement. Huge.

• The Ferengi started out as artificially mannered psychos with ape-like body language. That was insufferable and unsustainable. By the time DS9 got rolling, they were retconned into the best characters you could ask for. I loved them.

• TMP started off the film series with too much gray and pastels in the color palette. And the standard duty uniforms weren't very dashing. On Kirk and Scotty, the blue-gray version looked like nursing uniforms, or a toddler's footed pajamas. The Wrath of Khan had uniforms that projected more strength and power, bringing back the black trousers and a strong, vivid color on top. Not perfect, but a huge improvement.

Anything else?

 

[Farscape One]

The Temporal Cold War - it was on ENT from the beginning. They fixed it by getting rid of it entirely at the beginning of season 4.

My eternal gratitude to Manny Coto for making it happen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Temporal Cold War - it was on ENT from the beginning. They fixed it by getting rid of it entirely at the beginning of season 4.

My eternal gratitude to Manny Coto for making it happen.

Did it really ever go away though? Discovery is in the shadow of it in the 32nd century and because time is wibbly-wobby, Strange New Worlds had an episode about it last season.

 

[Citiprime]

Bashir - I remember in the early seasons of DS9 there were a lot of people who could not stand the character. It was once they gave Bashir the friendship with Garak to contrast his naivete and idealism, as well as developed his relationship with O'Brien, that I think people started to get the character. Even before the reveal of the genetic modifications, I always see season 4's "The Quickening" as the point where the Bashir of the pilot, who talks about chasing "frontier medicine," is fundamentally changed and grows up.

TNG Uniforms - Season 3 of TNG is usually considered the point where it "gets good." I also think part of that is getting rid of the TNG seasons 1-2 uniforms which (IMHO) looked ridiculous and uncomfortable. The TNG uniforms from seasons 3-7 are something I find believable that a space navy would wear and look professional.

Archer - I've mentioned this in other threads, but I thought Scott Bakula was horribly miscast during the early seasons of Enterprise. He seems awkward in the role. The characterization the show gives Bakula to play with is between pouting about the Vulcans and irritated by being out of his depth in an unknown environment. Starting with season 3, I started believing that Archer would actually be a legendary figure, because I could believe him as a leader on a desperate mission. And Bakula gives that notion nuance by playing it with regret. He'd rather be charting star systems instead of fighting for Earth's survival, but you believe the character's emotions in that situation.

 

[Oddish]

The horrible "women can't be starship captains" business from "Turnabout Intruder". They fixed that goof in Star Trek IV, if I remember right.

 

[Orphalesion]

The idea of early TNG that future people wouldn't have things like interpersonal conflicts, character flaws, or feel emotions like grief, even if it's a child confronted with the sudden death of their mother.

The first two seasons really frequently suffer from this idea, thankfully it was increasingly ignored/done away with.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

The idea of early TNG that future people wouldn't have things like interpersonal conflicts, character flaws, or feel emotions like grief, even if it's a child confronted with the sudden death of their mother.

The first two seasons really frequently suffer from this idea, thankfully it was increasingly ignored/done away with.

At least one son lost a parent on TNG. But were the writers misguided enough to recommend the child not to dwell on it? Details requested, if that was the case. (Can't wait to hear what Troi babbles about this subject.)

 

[Citiprime]

The one thing I’ll give early TNG is that it feels like a totally different social structure and a very different future society.

Where something like Picard feels like 21st century humanity in a 25th century century setting.

 

[Farscape One]

Did it really ever go away though? Discovery is in the shadow of it in the 32nd century and because time is wibbly-wobby, Strange New Worlds had an episode about it last season.

I can't fault ENT or Manny Coto for a future series produced over a decade later trying to undo what he did. Coto fixed it within that series (and what ended up being that era of the franchise), with no idea that a gap of over a decade would occur for the franchise after that season.

 

[Shawnster]

At least one son lost a parent on TNG. But were the writers misguided enough to recommend the child not to dwell on it? Details requested, if that was the case. (Can't wait to hear what Troi babbles about this subject.)

Actions speak louder than words. The writers did not use dialog to convey the message. They used how characters acted and behaved.

There are two instances, "The Bonding," where a security officer is killed and leaves behind an orphan son who is around 10 or so, and "Hero Worship," where a space disaster kills the parents of a boy around 10 or so. In both episodes the newly orphaned boy is left alone in his cabin (or apartment) and no mention is ever given about any offer of counseling or therapy. Each child is supposed deal with their losses on their own. Sure, Enterprise crew check in on the child, but they are children, for crying out loud. They should not be left alone in their own cabin, even if the ship is like one big floating residence. Their parents just died. And they are children!!

 

[Finn]

Did it really ever go away though? Discovery is in the shadow of it in the 32nd century and because time is wibbly-wobby, Strange New Worlds had an episode about it last season.

They did?

 

[Oddish]

QUOTE: Each child is supposed deal with their losses on their own. Sure, Enterprise crew check in on the child, but they are children, for crying out loud. They should not be left alone in their own cabin, even if the ship is like one big floating residence. Their parents just died. And they are children!

And we don't find out the ultimate arrangements that were made for either character. Would it have been too much to say that Timothy of the Vico had grandparents on Earth, or an aunt stationed on Starbase 47, and the USS Rhode Island would drop him off with them?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Would it have been too much to say that Timothy of the Vico had grandparents on Earth, or an aunt stationed on Starbase 47, and the USS Rhode Island would drop him off with them?

I'm sure that's precisely what happened. We can just assume it, it doesn't need to be stated.

Like the Borg baby from VOY. Simple enough to rationalize that it was adopted by a crewmember or dropped off with the other ex-Borg kids. They don't need to state it outright.

They did?

Yep. "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow".

Spoiler

The Romulans attempted to erase the Eugenics Wars from existence (without the wars, the Federation would never exist). Entire temporal conflicts were fought over it.

In the end, the wars were not prevented, simply pushed forward a few decades.

This also explains ST:FC. When that film first came out, World War III and the Eugenics Wars were retconned as being different conflicts. SNW retroactively undid this retcon.

 

[FormerLurker]

• The Keeper's voice in "The Cage" was originally just Malachi Throne. For "The Menagerie," they adjusted it electronically to be weird and alien sounding, and that was a huge improvement. Huge.

I have one minor quibble here; it wasn't even electronically, as in filtering through a synthesizer or computer. The just sped up the tape to raise the pitch of his voice. Malachi Throne's deep voice pitched as a high tenor is weird and alien sounding.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The horrible "women can't be starship captains" business from "Turnabout Intruder". They fixed that goof in Star Trek IV, if I remember right.

Assuming that goof even existed in the first place.

Janice Lester is the ultimate unreliable narrator, after all...

 

[Oddish]

I'm sure that's precisely what happened. We can just assume it, it doesn't need to be stated.

But really, how hard would it be? Maybe I watched "Oliver!" one time too many as a child, or heard a few foster care nightmare stories as an educator. Maybe I like a little reassurance that these youngsters weren't left to the mercy of the child welfare system.

Like the Borg baby from VOY. Simple enough to rationalize that it was adopted by a crewmember or dropped off with the other ex-Borg kids. They don't need to state it outright.

First of all... how hard would it be? A few extra seconds of captain's log. "Seven was familiar with the Borg infant's species, and we were able to return her to her people."
And second, to quote Trip, she's not an "it".

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I have one minor quibble here; it wasn't even electronically, as in filtering through a synthesizer or computer. The just sped up the tape to raise the pitch of his voice. Malachi Throne's deep voice pitched as a high tenor is weird and alien sounding.

That isn't right, F.L. If they just sped up the tape, the words would run too fast, and then they'd have to speed up the film, and the Keeper would move too fast.

To pitch shift Malachi Throne's Keeper voice, they used a (then) high-tech device called the Eltro Mark II:
https://www.wendycarlos.com/other/Eltro-1967/index.html

 

[nightwind1]

The horrible "women can't be starship captains" business from "Turnabout Intruder". They fixed that goof in Star Trek IV, if I remember right.

You do realize that Janet Lester was insane, right? Why would you believe anything she babbled about?

 

[Oddish]

You do realize that Janet Lester was insane, right? Why would you believe anything she babbled about?

We were presumably supposed to. Though admittedly, Ms. Lester's instability gives us a good justification for why female starship captains were a thing 100 years earlier.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Ooh, good topic! Let's see...

-Yeah, it's good that pretty much every subsequent Trek series recognized the "Women can't be Starship Captains" thing as nonsense and have just ignored it without ever attempting an "explanation" for it.

-Getting rid of the self-righteous "We're so much more evolved than the poor dumb people of the 20th Century" stuff from TNG's early seasons. It made the Enterprise-D crew really hard to like at times, because they were so damn smug. I mean, I may think I'm smarter and more "evolved" than the average person from the 17th Century, but I don't go around bragging about it all the time.

-Also agreed that the Ferengi worked better as Space Weasels than the new Klingons.

-Restoring the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic from TWOK going forward after TMP largely dispensed with it.

-Likewise, getting rid of the bland footie pajamas from TMP in favor of the TWOK uniforms was a BIG upgrade.

-Gene Coon giving the cast more humor and camaraderie during his time as story editor on TOS. It made them a lot more endearing & let the audience develop more affection for them. (Of course, Roddenberry directed later showrunners to get rid of this, but it was nice while lasted.)

-Letting Avery Brooks grow out his goatee and shave his head again as Sisko. It made the actor more comfortable and made Sisko look -- and act -- a lot more badass than the more milquetoast version version we got in earlier seasons of DS9.

-Finally letting ENT become a prequel to TOS in the 4th season instead of TNG and VOY with a different cast.

-The Enterprise bridge set got a BIG upgrade between STV and STVI. The STV configuration of the bridge is my least favorite version from the movies - too beige, all of the bridge graphics bland & boxed in, and just too TNG-looking in general. Meyer's STVI redress gave it a cooler color scheme, more interesting graphics with a wider variety to them and made it look more like a military vessel instead of a hotel lobby. Yeah, I don't get how the turbolifts fit in either, but whatever. It doesn't bother me too much.