Starship Size Argument™ thread

[James]

This image is wrong, the bridge is too small for that viewscreen. Even you know the entire viewscreen window is used by the bridge. I also know thanks to previous posts and other threads that this plan is the set plan, not the deck plan for the ship.

 

[James]

This and this, before it enters the mouth of the shuttlebay and while it's in the mouth.

Also take account that the vengance is pitched forwards so the gap between the front of saucer to the waterfront would be greater than if the ship was level.

The Vengeance wasn't pitched forward that much, just enough for the front of the saucer to be slightly submerged. Someone could draw an outline of th saucer and curve it back around.

Here is the video, fast forward to the end and you'll see a shadow and if you still claim not to see one then something is up because there is a shadow on top of the shuttle as it enters the now smaller bay. I don't know about something called astris something, what is that?

http://youtu.be/jSxZkdACN7g

 

[F. King Daniel]

I overlaid the rearranged set plan over a fan-made picture of the Enterprise. Since there have been no official orthographic views released they're all we've got - and they all differ a little. This one has a window drawn too wide and is angled when the one in the movie is narrower and straight up.

 

[James]

I overlaid the rearranged set plan over a fan-made picture of the Enterprise. Since there have been no official orthographic views released they're all we've got - and they all differ a little. This one has a window drawn too wide and is angled when the one in the movie is narrower and straight up.

It's still wrong though and someone should enlarge the bridge to fit that window, for the sake of accuracy. Of course then that would mean the shaft thing is no below the dome on top, truth be told we don't really know where it is.

 

[trevanian]

I've pretty much been lightly on your side with this, especially the monster ship crash in the bay, but on the shuttle deal, I am kinda thinking the shadow you mention -- which is most definitely there -- might be coming from the nacelle or some other object.

It looks like the shadow aspect occurs before the shuttle gets where it is supposed to be (then again, it could just be a lousy comp, in which case we again have ILM to blame, even if it is for a different reason this time.)

None of this changes the likelihood that the ship is getting resized as needed, since ILM has been doing this kind of thing for just about ever and ever (one model for Vermithrax in DRAGONSLAYER for flying and another for walking, and I'm pretty sure different CG models for DRAGONHEART's Draco, because there were interpenetration problems trying to get the wings to work while retaining the walking version of him. The Bird of Prey in SFS seems to change drastically in size from scene to scene, and I think the same can be said for TVH, though probably not so extreme a change.)

The bay shot MIGHT have been done with 'long' virtual lenses, suggesting more of a telephoto view, which would compress the field of view and distort the size of objects. Would have to look at a high rez version of the shot.

 

[James]

I've pretty much been lightly on your side with this, especially the monster ship crash in the bay, but on the shuttle deal, I am kinda thinking the shadow you mention -- which is most definitely there -- might be coming from the nacelle or some other object.

It looks like the shadow aspect occurs before the shuttle gets where it is supposed to be (then again, it could just be a lousy comp, in which case we again have ILM to blame, even if it is for a different reason this time.)

None of this changes the likelihood that the ship is getting resized as needed, since ILM has been doing this kind of thing for just about ever and ever (one model for Vermithrax in DRAGONSLAYER for flying and another for walking, and I'm pretty sure different CG models for DRAGONHEART's Draco, because there were interpenetration problems trying to get the wings to work while retaining the walking version of him. The Bird of Prey in SFS seems to change drastically in size from scene to scene, and I think the same can be said for TVH, though probably not so extreme a change.)

The bay shot MIGHT have been done with 'long' virtual lenses, suggesting more of a telephoto view, which would compress the field of view and distort the size of objects. Would have to look at a high rez version of the shot.

If it were from a nacelle it would have come and gone since the nacelle is much thinner toward the back and the light source is coming from the top right, it starts when the shuttle enters the bay and doesn't stop. The shadow itself is caused by the structure of the landing bay. The Vengeance itself goes from a semi blurry looking dreadnought to a detailed dreadnought as it's hitting the water. I'm pretty sure that the shadow is coming from edge of the shuttlebay though because as we see the shuttle go further and the shadow continues being cast on the shuttle as it enters the bay. The entering shuttle is also larger than the one superimposed inside the bay itself that daniel highlighted earlier. We saw the new smaller shuttlebay when the enterprise lost power and fell to earth, kirk and scotty saw a few shuttles fall off of their plateforms and behind them was the door itself highlighted with soft white light bars.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Here is the video, fast forward to the end and you'll see a shadow and if you still claim not to see one then something is up because there is a shadow on top of the shuttle as it enters the now smaller bay. I don't know about something called astris something, what is that?

http://youtu.be/jSxZkdACN7g

I see the shadow now right at the end, but the shuttle still looks too far away to be inside the hangar - and as I posted earlier, there's one of the 40' STXI shuttles sitting in there just as they were in the last movie. Perhaps it's simply the shuttle moving from being in direct sunlight to being in the shadow of the Enterprise's engineering hull?

The site I was referring to was the fansite www.ex-astris-scientia.org.

I overlaid the rearranged set plan over a fan-made picture of the Enterprise. Since there have been no official orthographic views released they're all we've got - and they all differ a little. This one has a window drawn too wide and is angled when the one in the movie is narrower and straight up.

It's still wrong though and someone should enlarge the bridge to fit that window, for the sake of accuracy. Of course then that would mean the shaft thing is no below the dome on top, truth be told we don't really know where it is.

Again, it's the picture of the Enterprise which is inaccurate. The slanting rim of the deck structure and window aren't that shape on the actual model, where there is no slant, the window is recessed and narrower

If the turbolift plaza isn't at the centre of the saucer, with the domes on top and bottom looking out into space, where else on the ship could it possibly be? Their intention that it is there couldn't be clearer - and as I showed, the two sets fit back to back on a 725m Enterprise. That cannot be coincidence.

And remember again that there are the enourmous brewery engineering sections to consider, which would never fit into an engineering hull that's 30m across at it's very widest point.

I can't understand how all this evidence can possibly be discounted. The insides simply would not fit. You'd be ignoring so much of the two movies in order to pretend the new ship is the same size as the old one, you might as well ignore them and it altogether.

 

[James]

Here is the video, fast forward to the end and you'll see a shadow and if you still claim not to see one then something is up because there is a shadow on top of the shuttle as it enters the now smaller bay. I don't know about something called astris something, what is that?

http://youtu.be/jSxZkdACN7g

I see the shadow now right at the end, but the shuttle still looks too far away to be inside the hangar - and as I posted earlier, there's one of the 40' STXI shuttles sitting in there just as they were in the last movie. Perhaps it's simply the shuttle moving from being in direct sunlight to being in the shadow of the Enterprise's engineering hull?

The site I was referring to was the fansite www.ex-astris-scientia.org.

I overlaid the rearranged set plan over a fan-made picture of the Enterprise. Since there have been no official orthographic views released they're all we've got - and they all differ a little. This one has a window drawn too wide and is angled when the one in the movie is narrower and straight up.

It's still wrong though and someone should enlarge the bridge to fit that window, for the sake of accuracy. Of course then that would mean the shaft thing is no below the dome on top, truth be told we don't really know where it is.

Again, it's the picture of the Enterprise which is inaccurate. The slanting rim of the deck structure and window aren't that shape on the actual model, where there is no slant, the window is recessed and narrower

If the turbolift plaza isn't at the centre of the saucer, with the domes on top and bottom looking out into space, where else on the ship could it possibly be? Their intention that it is there couldn't be clearer - and as I showed, the two sets fit back to back on a 725m Enterprise. That cannot be coincidence.

And remember again that there are the enourmous brewery engineering sections to consider, which would never fit into an engineering hull that's 30m across at it's very widest point.

I can't understand how all this evidence can possibly be discounted. The insides simply would not fit. You'd be ignoring so much of the two movies in order to pretend the new ship is the same size as the old one, you might as well ignore them and it altogether.

That brewery is highly unrealistic, Abrams should have used money to actually design an engineering set instead of using a beer brewery, he even left the brewery's skylight windows in the top of the engineering section. I'm looking at the brewery they used on google earth and the brewery itself could fit in a ship that was smaller than 725 meters. The building with all the tanks and pipes is smaller than the sorting and packaging building. The eastern most part when measured from the last building to the street is 1480 feet. The trouble is we never get any kind of technical graphic that explains everything, That being said, I'm just going to let my imagination guess since their sets do not connect to each other to form a ship that people can accurately figure out.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That brewery is highly unrealistic, Abrams should have used money to actually design an engineering set instead of using a beer brewery, he even left the brewery's skylight windows in the top of the engineering section. I'm looking at the brewery they used on google earth and the brewery itself could fit in a ship that was smaller than 725 meters. The building with all the tanks and pipes is smaller than the sorting and packaging building. The eastern most part when measured from the last building to the street is 1480 feet. The trouble is we never get any kind of technical graphic that explains everything, That being said, I'm just going to let my imagination guess since their sets do not connect to each other to form a ship that people can accurately figure out.

IMO the engineering sections in Star Trek and Into Darkness are the same as those we saw in TOS, but on a far larger scale:

There is no chance that the brewery would fit into an Enterprise with a 30m wide engineering hull, as would be the case on a 366m/1200ft Enterprise. It would need to be far larger.... say, 725m/2380ft?

As for where everything fits, I made this way back at the start of the thread. Again, I think the only reason you cannot figure it out is because you're working from a faulty assumption - that this Enterprise is about the same size as the old one (300ish meters), when the makers of the film have said and shown repeatedly that their Enterprise is around 725m long.

 

[bullethead]

As for where everything fits, I made this way back at the start of the thread. Again, I think the only reason you cannot figure it out is because you're working from a faulty assumption - that this Enterprise is about the same size as the old one (300ish meters), when the makers of the film have said and shown repeatedly that their Enterprise is around 725m long.

You probably covered this when you first posted the graphic, but is there any particular reason why communications is in the engineering hull instead of closer to the saucer?

 

[drt]

You probably covered this when you first posted the graphic, but is there any particular reason why communications is in the engineering hull instead of closer to the saucer?

I think because the location where Kirk found Uhura in ST'09 was stated by Chekov in STID as being behind the main deflector.

 

[Belz...]

Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.

Did you read my post about Alcatraz being crushed by this ship ? It's HUGE.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^^Yep. Although I think I made the turbine area too small, it's a deck or two bigger than I have it here. Communications control was a little too high up anyway.

If any brewery enthusiasts know the exact dimensions of the fermenting tank warp cores, I'd be interested to know. Guesstimating a diameter of 20ft, they just about fit, with three rows, the gap with the catwalk and one more row on the other side. Their height I'm less sure of, but I'm hoping not so tall as to preclude the lowest level of engineering and the shuttlebay being on the same deck (since they walk through engineering to reach the shuttlebay every time)

 

[Locutus of Bored]

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)

Yeah, no problem.

 

[trevanian]

That brewery is highly unrealistic, Abrams should have used money to actually design an engineering set instead of using a beer brewery, he even left the brewery's skylight windows in the top of the engineering section. I'm looking at the brewery they used on google earth and the brewery itself could fit in a ship that was smaller than 725 meters. The building with all the tanks and pipes is smaller than the sorting and packaging building. The eastern most part when measured from the last building to the street is 1480 feet. The trouble is we never get any kind of technical graphic that explains everything, That being said, I'm just going to let my imagination guess since their sets do not connect to each other to form a ship that people can accurately figure out.

IMO the engineering sections in Star Trek and Into Darkness are the same as those we saw in TOS, but on a far larger scale:

There is no chance that the brewery would fit into an Enterprise with a 30m wide engineering hull, as would be the case on a 366m/1200ft Enterprise. It would need to be far larger.... say, 725m/2380ft?

As for where everything fits, I made this way back at the start of the thread. Again, I think the only reason you cannot figure it out is because you're working from a faulty assumption - that this Enterprise is about the same size as the old one (300ish meters), when the makers of the film have said and shown repeatedly that their Enterprise is around 725m long.

You missed pointing out where all those 20th century rivets from the brewery and bolts are on any TOS or TMP Enterprise. Cuz they ain't there, maybe? The biggest problem with the brewery is that they didn't even disguise it. Next biggest is that conceptually it is embarrassing. You'd expect microfiche readers on the bridge if you wanted tech continuity.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You missed pointing out where all those 20th century rivets from the brewery and bolts are on any TOS or TMP Enterprise. Cuz they ain't there, maybe?

Enterprise NX-01 had visible nuts, bolts and screws all over the ship. IIRC, defector control on the Enterprise-B in Generations did too. Oh, and Deep Space Nine had their "self sealing stembolts"

The biggest problem with the brewery is that they didn't even disguise it. Next biggest is that conceptually it is embarrassing. You'd expect microfiche readers on the bridge if you wanted tech continuity.

I guess everyone has their own threshold of what's acceptable and what isn't. I found STVI/TNG/DS9 Klingons hard to swallow, with their latex pie foreheads and rubber armour. Virtually unmodified TNG sets in STVI used to bother me, but nowadays I couldn't care less.

IMO the fermenting tanks are as much "warp cores" as the generic thing in the middle of TOS engine room is either an "impulse syncrotron unit" (according to Franz Joseph in '75) or a "matter/antimatter integrator" (according to Mike Okuda in '96). The thing Kirk kicks into allignment in ID is as much an integral part of the engine workings as the thing Spock fiddled around with in WoK.

 

[trevanian]

NX01 was a disaster in the details. contemporary computer fans visible on the helm killed it right off the bat, just like having a tube-powered oscilloscope would. DS9's stuff was DESIGNED, not offtheshelf. Can't speak to the GEN bit, don't recall them being so dumb as to do something there only.

There's an idiot moment in TWOK when during the 'energize defense screens' bit, somebody splices in 2 cuts of a modern console that has ZERO continuity with everything else in the show. But Abrams basically does half his ship that way.

 

[JarodRussell]

That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".

 

[YellowSubmarine]

That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".

Not to mention to "Men in pyjamas"

 

[F. King Daniel]

NX01 was a disaster in the details. contemporary computer fans visible on the helm killed it right off the bat, just like having a tube-powered oscilloscope would. DS9's stuff was DESIGNED, not offtheshelf. Can't speak to the GEN bit, don't recall them being so dumb as to do something there only.

There's an idiot moment in TWOK when during the 'energize defense screens' bit, somebody splices in 2 cuts of a modern console that has ZERO continuity with everything else in the show. But Abrams basically does half his ship that way.

As I said, it's relative. Those things didn't bother me or take me out of the story. And as much as I realize it'll date the NX-01 terribly in years to come, I actually got a kick out of seeing an Enterprise bridge made with contemporary technology.

That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".

So since you can't point out anything substantial, I guess you agree they're pretty much the same.