Starship Size Argument™ thread

[Crazy Eddie]

Just to add my two cents into the conservation.
I just don't like the nuEnterprise "super-size". The overall classic Enterprise visual cues suggest a much smaller size (close to the original). Whereas the Next-Gen Enterprise, gave you a sense of real huge scale, based on the visual cues.

For me personally, and from an engineering standpoint, the TMP Enterprise had the best representation of the ship, size and scale. Plus that move showed that it all depends on how the ship is filmed. It showed that you still fit fairly large sets into the ship, and still get a real sense of huge scale.

Except some of the sets for the TMP enterprise wouldn't actually fit inside of the model at the scale it was originally designed. Engineering is by far the biggest perpetrator; the engine room sports several perpendicular corridors that lead to places that couldn't exist in a hull that size and would only be possible if the ship itself was nearly twice as large as originally designed.

Abrams' people evidently encountered the same problem with the filming sets when they realized that there was just no way they could justify cramming something that huge into an engineering section only forty meters wide; especially once they decided to do it big with the (IMO, totally awesome) airport-sized shuttlebay.

Try to remember that the majority of spaceship effects and exterior CG are mainly done in post-production after most principal photography is completed. If they finish those CG shots early, it's usually for the purpose of sticking it in a preview.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I am a little bit concerned about Borg cubes. They would either be way too small to be a threat – they would be only slightly bigger than the Vengeance. Vengeance is so huge and sinister that Borg cubes won't look as ominous now.

Borg cubes haven't been described as "ominous" since at least the 5th season of Voyager.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, these things are supposed to be really big, right?

 

[trevanian]

Just to add my two cents into the conservation.
I just don't like the nuEnterprise "super-size". The overall classic Enterprise visual cues suggest a much smaller size (close to the original). Whereas the Next-Gen Enterprise, gave you a sense of real huge scale, based on the visual cues.

For me personally, and from an engineering standpoint, the TMP Enterprise had the best representation of the ship, size and scale. Plus that move showed that it all depends on how the ship is filmed. It showed that you still fit fairly large sets into the ship, and still get a real sense of huge scale.

Except some of the sets for the TMP enterprise wouldn't actually fit inside of the model at the scale it was originally designed. Engineering is by far the biggest perpetrator; the engine room sports several perpendicular corridors that lead to places that couldn't exist in a hull that size and would only be possible if the ship itself was nearly twice as large as originally designed.

Abrams' people evidently encountered the same problem with the filming sets when they realized that there was just no way they could justify cramming something that huge into an engineering section only forty meters wide; especially once they decided to do it big with the (IMO, totally awesome) airport-sized shuttlebay.

Try to remember that the majority of spaceship effects and exterior CG are mainly done in post-production after most principal photography is completed. If they finish those CG shots early, it's usually for the purpose of sticking it in a preview.

The TMP ship has a few discrepancies, but the big one, the rec deck, is principally because the film's production designer kept insisting it go in the dish facing backward, instead of down in engineering where it would actually fit. (And then that is compounded by the not-so-special director's cut, which adds the officer's lounge in a spot that hovers in space above the dish, given the view aft.)

Wise and the PD screwed up putting that corridor into engineering facing forward (and I'd bet money that this was their addition after Wise had Joe Jennings fired, cuz that J.J. really did respect the layout), but I don't recall anything else that didn't fit.

And as far as that goes, these kind of fall into the shuttlecraft Galileo category of slightly-bigger-on-inside-than-outside, which is common even if you're not doing science fiction. That's opposed to the AbramsMobile, which would be a friggin' TARDIS by comparison if they hadn't done their slapdash upscaling.

Visual effects are budgeted in large part based on previs, so there are low-rez versions of shots in the works from preproduction onward. So there is always SOMETHING that can get stuck into the cut as it evolves; we're a very long ways out from the 'scene missing' cards due to waiting on VFX, on the order of a couple decades at this point. It's just a guess, but I think the scale issue on the Abrams reared its head very early in the process, and it simply wasn't thought necessary to address it till further down the line. Wouldn't surprise me if Geoff Mandel tumbled to it right away (guess he would have had to, since he was gotten gone so quickly.)

Also, you gotta remember that even pre-Abrams, 'continuity is for wussies' was an ILM catchphrase. I heard it invoked for TUC when I asked about why they decided the shields were invisible (in TWOK & SFS this issue was skirted since the shields were always conveniently down when any ship got fired upon.)

 

[TheSubCommander]

Ok so if the Reboot Enterprise is roughly the size of Enterprise D or E, then the....

Spoiler: Spoiler pics of Into Darkness

...."Dark Ship" is just ginormous!
[Please don't post embedded images hotlinked from webspace which is not your own. Especially not ginormous images. Especially not from TrekMovie, 'cause Anthony hates when people do that on his bandwidth. Images posted inline need to be hosted on your own web space or on an image-sharing account which is registered to you. - M']
http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/stid-t5-25.jpg
I have to say at first, I thought this ship might have been a Sovereign Class ship, but if Reboot Enterprise is around the size of Enterprise D or E, then this is clearly a Class all its own!
http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/vengeance-b.jpg
http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/stid-t5-24.jpg

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah, it's at least as big as a Romulan D'Deridex-class Warbird. Maybe a little longer. Don't think there has been any info on the actual official dimensions of this one yet.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spoiler: Dreadnought size

Reportedly, according to dialogue in the movie, the USS Vengeance is twice the size of the Enterprise. The FX confirms it:

 

[anh165]

It would probably be big enough to dock the Excelsior.

Would pay good money to see that.

 

[EJD1984]

Spoiler: Dreadnought size

Reportedly, according to dialogue in the movie, the USS Vengeance is twice the size of the Enterprise. The FX confirms it:

But then to add to the new ship size mayhem - super...Super...SUPER.....SIZE
2900m?!?!

 

[137th Gebirg]

That poster, to me, is quite a curiosity. I both love it and hate it at the same time.

 

[anh165]

The size of the ship seen in the poster would be more believable if the Vengeance had an elipitical saucer instead of a round one.

Anyone thought about doing the same angle shot between say the Enterprise D to the Enterprise E? The E is longer but at that angle, the latter would appear dwarfed.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

When did Spock try to save Romulus? Because Voyager already returned from the Delta Quadrant with 'trans-phasic torpedo' technology as well as that special shielding that Spock prime would be aware of.

Taking technology from an alternative timeline that's two universes away and twice non-existent? That's double-cheating.

At that rate, the Star Trek that will be airing by 2265 will have Ancient Greeks fighting the Borg with trans-phasic torpedoes they got from a Roman starship captain who came back in time.

Maybe that will eventually explain the Romulans and the Remans.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The TMP ship has a few discrepancies, but the big one, the rec deck, is principally because the film's production designer kept insisting it go in the dish facing backward, instead of down in engineering where it would actually fit.

Actually, the rec deck was originally intended to fit into a space directly below and behind the main bridge with some very large windows on the top of the saucer to indicate its position. After the set was designed and built, the model was changed and the windows were moved to the rim of the saucer, starboard aft; the set designers covered over the big skylights where the windows were originally supposed to be and installed new ones in the back of the room. This is why the Rec Deck set has a diagonally slanted roof; that was originally supposed to be the upper part of the saucer directly below the officer's lounge.

It's possible the Director's Cut intended to mitigate this by moving the officer's lounge into that space (hence the nacelle placement in the DC) which would imply the "windows" in the rec deck are now viewscreens linked to cameras on the hull.

Visual effects are budgeted in large part based on previs, so there are low-rez versions of shots in the works from preproduction onward. So there is always SOMETHING that can get stuck into the cut as it evolves...

But in the age of CGI effects, that "something" is usually of such low quality that it would make The Last Starfighter look like Oscar material. The FX guys have a LONG way to go before the finished product, and there's plenty of room for revision and improvement, room that simply didn't exist in the age of miniatures and filming models.

It's just a guess, but I think the scale issue on the Abrams reared its head very early in the process, and it simply wasn't thought necessary to address it till further down the line. Wouldn't surprise me if Geoff Mandel tumbled to it right away (guess he would have had to, since he was gotten gone so quickly.)

That's a good guess. I would actually add that Mandel's departure was one of the reasons it didn't get rescaled until later on. The TrekBBS rumor mill suggests he was fired for making an issue of it, but it's probably the other way around; he was tasked to deal with the scale issue, but was released from the team for whatever reason and no one stepped in to fill his role.

Also, you gotta remember that even pre-Abrams, 'continuity is for wussies' was an ILM catchphrase. I heard it invoked for TUC when I asked about why they decided the shields were invisible (in TWOK & SFS this issue was skirted since the shields were always conveniently down when any ship got fired upon.)

And the fact that the shields managed to be invisible in STXI should be a reminder to everyone of this sad but true fact.

 

[EJD1984]

USS Vengeance: Just noticed that the ship may have it's own version of 10-Forward. Or in this size case - 40-Forward..................

Look on the saucer edge towards the right

PS - It is me. Or does it seem like Abrams may have "size" issues.

 

[anh165]

USS Vengeance: Just noticed that the ship may have it's own version of 10-Forward. Or in this size case - 40-Forward..................

Look on the saucer edge towards the right

PS - It is me. Or does it seem like Abrams may have "size" issues.

I would hope a 23rd century starship of this size would atleast have some proper sized room and facilities. Unlike the tiny cabin quarters you see in TUC.

A big games room and bar maketh a ship.

 

[Phily B]

After seeing it, the size appears really inconsistent. The Vengeance doesn't look that much bigger, like the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

After seeing it, the size appears really inconsistent. The Vengeance doesn't look that much bigger, like the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird.

That's because it isn't, and the Enterprise isn't 750m. It's 350m. The artists took liberties with the shuttle scene, and the varying-sized bridge window.

Otherwise, we're forced to wonder why we would have a mile-long Federation battlecruiser with minimal crew (as stated in the movie). Sounds like Star Wars, to me.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It all seemed insanely massive to me. The Enterprise's engineering section and hangar bay certainly haven't shrunk any. We saw a few schematics of both Enterprise and Vengeance on computer screens and I'm eager to freeze-frame them on DVD in a few months' time.

As for the Vengeance...

Spoiler: little bit spoilery

Scotty's attempt to run across the Vengeance's cargo bay!

 

[anotherdemon]

Otherwise, we're forced to wonder why we would have a mile-long Federation battlecruiser with minimal crew (as stated in the movie). Sounds like Star Wars, to me.

It's explained in the film for why it exists, and said reason is fairly easy to see considering the incursion of Narada and the death of Vulcan. It can run on one crew-member if need be.

Enterprise seemed quite large in the movie; several hundred meters didn't seem too out of place going by eyeball.

Incidentally, the small Klingon vessels are referred to as a D4. Also, the transport that the heroes utilize (the one in the trailer) was said to be Mudd's -- comic book and/or TOS reference there.

 

[Phily B]

Yeah, I liked the explanation for the ship and they say that the Federation doesn't have warships "until now".