Starship Size Argument™ thread

[Crazy Eddie]

Where did you see any evidence that there are bigger ships, to give you this impression ?

USS Vengeance, for one. But also the existence of TOS fanon where the Enterprise wasn't the largest ship in THAT universe either; the three-nacelle Dreadnoughts (which are partially canon via TSFS bridge displays) were significantly larger, as was the Proxima class from "Star Trek Legacy".

Prior to that, there was the fact that the only other ships that accompanied Enterprise to Vulcan were all much older-looking Kelvin kitbashes and all similar size. It stood to reason that Enterprise was the odd man out in that group and therefore newer generations of starships were being built out of similar "modules" as the Enterprise, also being of roughly similar size if not slightly larger. So I figured the Abramsverse Proxmia class would be scaled accordingly, even if its actual design might be dramatically different.

Which, again, turned out to be a correct assumption vis a vis USS Vengeance.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Where did you see any evidence that there are bigger ships, to give you this impression ?

I just wonder why you'd call a 'Light Cruiser' a flagship like Pike did in the first film?

Because flagships are not always or even usually the largest or most powerful ship in any particular fleet. Strictly speaking, the flagship of the U.S. 7th Fleet wouldn't even classify as a light cruiser and is half the size of the supercarriers under its command.

 

[BillJ]

Where did you see any evidence that there are bigger ships, to give you this impression ?

I just wonder why you'd call a 'Light Cruiser' a flagship like Pike did in the first film?

Because flagships are not always or even usually the largest or most powerful ship in any particular fleet. Strictly speaking, the flagship of the U.S. 7th Fleet wouldn't even classify as a light cruiser and is half the size of the supercarriers under its command.

Yeah. But I don't really think that is the definition of flagship they were using.

 

[Belz...]

USS Vengeance, for one.

Brand new specialty ship aside, please.

But also the existence of TOS fanon where the Enterprise wasn't the largest ship in THAT universe either

Again, fanon is not canon. During TOS, it was implied that the Constitution was the most powerful ship the Federation had.

Prior to that, there was the fact that the only other ships that accompanied Enterprise to Vulcan were all much older-looking Kelvin kitbashes and all similar size. It stood to reason that Enterprise was the odd man out in that group and therefore newer generations of starships

Wait, you just turned a good premise into an unwarranted conclusion. The conclusion is: the Enterprise is the most modern starship available to the Federation, and probably the biggest, Vengeance aside.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

During TOS, it was implied that the Constitution was the most powerful ship the Federation had.

No it wasn't. In fact, it's not even implied to be the most advanced in the fleet.

More to the point, even if it WAS the most powerful -- which TOS gives no indication whatsoever that this was even remotely the case -- that still doesn't imply "biggest."

Wait, you just turned a good premise into an unwarranted conclusion. The conclusion is: the Enterprise is the most modern starship available to the Federation, and probably the biggest...

"Is probably the biggest" doesn't follow from that conclusion, since modernity and largeness are mutually exclusive.

FYI, the most modern warship in the U.S. Navy right now is the Littoral Combat Ship, yet for entirely different reasons it is also by far the smallest.

My overall point is that Enterprise appears to be slightly above average in comparison to a series of much older vessels with a similar hull configuration; reasoning that other ships of her generation would be similarly enlarged, it stands to reason she is actually pretty average for her generation, or at least, for her particular design system.

 

[OpenMaw]

My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.

Is there any on screen evidence of that? Going strictly by the supposed crew complement, size relative to the other ships we saw in the squadron she was part of in XI, and her overall capabilities, she seems to fill the same role as she did in the prime universe. That of a full sized cruiser. Not the biggest ship around, but certainly by no measure a "small ship." She's definitely a capital ship.

As far as her being the flag ship, I think some fans have a hard time separating the notion of "flag ship" with "big ship" they're not mutually exclusive. A flag ship in this case would, I assume, be the vessel that would lead squadron's into battle, or carry out Star fleet's most important assignments.

Funny, that didn't seem to work all that well on Voyager.

Well, I mean, that comes down to the show simply not making use of what it had. Limited power, fuel, ammo, and crew could have all been used to far greater dramatic effect, but I digress. That's another topic for another place.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.

Is there any on screen evidence of that?

There isn't any at all. Zip.

 

[Belz...]

No it wasn't. In fact, it's not even implied to be the most advanced in the fleet.

Pike says "newest flagship" and it didn't even get christened yet. That and the design, compared to the other ships, certainly implies it.

More to the point, even if it WAS the most powerful -- which TOS gives no indication whatsoever that this was even remotely the case -- that still doesn't imply "biggest."

No, but based on the evidence we have, it's more probable than not, in my opinion.

"Is probably the biggest" doesn't follow from that conclusion, since modernity and largeness are mutually exclusive.

Granted. My mistake.

 

[Gonzo]

The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser, as more advanced ships (Excelsior) were built it was then demoted to a Light Cruiser.

The class of a ship depends on many things such as its size, offensive armament and defensive capabilities compared to other ships of the same reality and time period.

So my guess is that the NuEnterprise is a Heavy Cruiser like before, at least until the Excelsior is properly introduced, the Kelvin was probably a light cruiser based on its reduced armament rather than its size.

I can probably scan the ship sheets from the fact files if anyone is interested. I've got the plans and everything.

 

[Belz...]

The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser

Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.

 

[Gonzo]

The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser

Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.

True but the Fact Files are official and canon, and I see no reason to doubt it.

Edit: Memory Alpha also says the same.

Edit Edit: Memory Alpha also confirms the NuEnterprise as a Heavy Cruiser as well.

 

[Belz...]

True but the Fact Files are official and canon

Would you mind providing a citation for that ?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser

Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.

Actually I think it was mentioned. In TSFS, when a lifeform is detected in Spock's cabin, the display says "Heavy Cruiser". See this pic:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...alpha/en/images/1/1b/Constitution_diagram.jpg

 

[Belz...]

Good catch. I had forgotten that.

 

[ATimson]

For me, it was the pursuit scene in the first movie where Sulu brings the Enterprise out of warp just within the atmosphere of Titan. The crew working together, the swelling music and the awe-inspiring sight of the Enterprise rising up out of cover, simply gorgeous. Even something as simple as the anti collision lights blinking just so said to me: "This is the best that the old girl has ever looked."

I really think it depends on the angle. As long as they don't show the side, emphasizing how far back the neck is mounted now, they're golden.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.

Is there any on screen evidence of that?

You're asking me for onscreen evidence that I got the impression the Enterprise was a light cruiser?

Going strictly by the supposed crew complement, size relative to the other ships we saw in the squadron she was part of in XI, and her overall capabilities, she seems to fill the same role as she did in the prime universe. That of a full sized cruiser.

Actually I thought the TOS ship was a light cruiser in the prime universe too and didn't become a "heavy" cruiser until the refit in TMP (heavier shields, increased torpedo and phaser armament, etc). Arguably, the refit at the end of STID might reflect the same up-classing, considering both its weapons and engines appear to have been upgraded.

Not the biggest ship around, but certainly by no measure a "small ship." She's definitely a capital ship.

So was USS Voyager (which, by the way, WAS the most modern ship in Starfleet at the time it was launched). Yet Voyager still wasn't quite as large as the Excelsior class ships that had been in service almost a hundred years earlier.

As far as her being the flag ship, I think some fans have a hard time separating the notion of "flag ship" with "big ship" they're not mutually exclusive. A flag ship in this case would, I assume, be the vessel that would lead squadron's into battle, or carry out Star fleet's most important assignments.

Either of which doesn't really imply bigness. Actually, I think in Starfleet terms the "flag ship" tends to be the FASTEST ship in the fleet (maybe precedent established by NX-01?).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No it wasn't. In fact, it's not even implied to be the most advanced in the fleet.

Pike says "newest flagship" and it didn't even get christened yet.

Not in TOS he doesn't.

No, but based on the evidence we have...

You mean the fact that every other starfleet ship the Enterprise ever encounters in all three seasons of TOS is EXACTLY the same size as the Enterprise?

That's not all that conclusive IMO.

 

[Belz...]

Not in TOS he doesn't.

No, but again, it's implied that starships like the Enterprise are among the most powerful around. I don't remember which episodes.

You mean the fact that every other starfleet ship the Enterprise ever encounters in all three seasons of TOS is EXACTLY the same size as the Enterprise?

Right, because all of them are of the same class. Notice that none are bigger, either.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not in TOS he doesn't.

No, but again, it's implied that starships like the Enterprise are among the most powerful around.

They're implied to be very powerful. Nothing and no one suggests MOST powerful. The closest line we have is when Kirk tells Captain Christopher "There are only twelve like her in the fleet." Suffice to say, of the hundreds of other ships in the fleet that aren't constitution class, some are probably larger and some are probably smaller; some are probably more powerful and some are probably less.

I'll again remind you that the "rising tide" of fleet capabilities isn't a sure thing, as entire fleets do not uniformly become larger or more powerful over time. The U.S. Navy, for example, no longer fields anything as large or as powerful as an Iowa class battleship or even the guided-missile equivalent of the Atlanta class heavy cruisers. Even the larger Ticonderoga class cruisers are approaching retirement now, with the Navy preferring the "zerg rush" approach of filling the ocean with smaller, more cost-effective destroyers.

That could be the difference between the TOS and Abrams timeline. TOS could have seen the Constitution class with a run of at least twelve ships at a time; the Abrams timeline might favor larger and more powerful ships in which case Enterprise would only be one of five ships of a class.

 

[Belz...]

They're implied to be very powerful. Nothing and no one suggests MOST powerful.

I said AMONG the most powerful, Eddie.

The closest line we have is when Kirk tells Captain Christopher "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."

Yeah, which kinda implies that they are pretty special.

Suffice to say, of the hundreds of other ships in the fleet that aren't constitution class, some are probably larger and some are probably smaller; some are probably more powerful and some are probably less.

Again, why do you think so ? There's precious little evidence in TOS or the movies, but the implication is that the Constitution is a special type of ship.