Starship Insignia

[J.T.B.]

As a Navy brat, I speculated that Theiss was going for something similar to the USN warfare badges, where the badges represent what part of the service you were in and/or your qualifications.

It's an interesting idea, and I've thought about it before. I think it has some things going against it, though. First of all, in the mid-'60s there were wings for aviation and dolphins for submariners, and that was it. The SWO water wings didn't come around till 1975, so when TOS was being made your typical blackshoe cruiser or destroyer officer didn't have any bling above the ribbons, much less your typical sailor. So I'm not sure how much that would have occurred to Theiss.

The other thing is, once you qualify, you wear that pin, regardless of assignment. The crew of destroyer A will have the same basic assortment of pins as destroyer B, because the qualifications needed to run destroyers will be similar across the board. I have a hard time imagining a reason why Kirk and his whole crew would have one set of qualifications, and Tracey and his crew a whole different set.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

It's an interesting idea, and I've thought about it before. I think it has some things going against it, though. First of all, in the mid-'60s there were wings for aviation and dolphins for submariners, and that was it. The SWO water wings didn't come around till 1975, so when TOS was being made your typical blackshoe cruiser or destroyer officer didn't have any bling above the ribbons, much less your typical sailor. So I'm not sure how much that would have occurred to Theiss.

The other thing is, once you qualify, you wear that pin, regardless of assignment. The crew of destroyer A will have the same basic assortment of pins as destroyer B, because the qualifications needed to run destroyers will be similar across the board. I have a hard time imagining a reason why Kirk and his whole crew would have one set of qualifications, and Tracey and his crew a whole different set.

Interesting. Didn't know that about the warfare badges. Thanks for the additional information.

As for the rest, it's a far from perfect theory.

 

[J.T.B.]

Interesting. Didn't know that about the warfare badges. Thanks for the additional information.

And for too much additional information, here are the "warfare" badges (the term not yet in use) available around the time of TOS (USN Uniform Regulations 1959, Change No. 3, April 1964, navy parachutist and submarine supply having just been added):

 

[Maurice]

The trouble with the ideas being put forward is that The Bird dictated that "STARSHIP crews" wear the arrowhead. So these are, of course, just fun retcons to fix what were identified by the production as "oops" mistakes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So in Starfleet's case:

• Delta: Starship service (the insignia within the badge shows your qualification/division: command, science/medical, engineering/ops)
• Starburst: Shore or starbase service

Perhaps Decker's badge represents a qualification or unique position that he held. In this case, "Commodore at Sea" instead of "at shore." Much like there's a USN badge for commands at sea and at shore.

Heck, maybe we could further say Tracey and his CMO had some other specialty, qualification, or another part of the service as the reason for why they had different badges.

That would make sense. It's too bad "the memo" disallows these sorts of proposals, too.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

That would make sense. It's too bad "the memo" disallows these sorts of proposals, too.

Oh for sure. It's just speculation. The only thing we can say for sure, as @Maurice points out, is that the delta/arrowhead symbolizes "starship crew."

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That would make sense. It's too bad "the memo" disallows these sorts of proposals, too.

Actually, not necessarily as it specifically validates the original use of the "Hoof" insignia on the grounds that the Antares crew were not "starship crew" but something different (Material Supply Command would seem likely) that may or may not even be part of Starfleet (but is certainly part of the Federation Uniformed Services given the similarities in uniform).

Starfleet Defense should as I suggested not longer operate starships (as the memo specifically disallows that) but I'm not sure that defense-related agencies couldn't still be part of it. Similarly for Starfleet Research and Administrative Operations, as long as any personnel from these divisions on starships wear the Delta, OSO, SM, SR&D or SAO not deployed on starships could still wear the alternative insignia.

 

[Ithekro]

Which would suggest that USS Constellation was not operating under Starfleet (exactly) but more the Defense Department of the Federation....a warship under theoretical Andorian authority, rolled up a century before into Federation service. For all we know this might indicated why her hull number is so much lower than Enterprises. Though not likely, since I tend to go with the idea that starships hull numbers need to mean something, and thus suggest that the number also indicates which shipyard or star system the ship was built at (or for), thus allowing for ships with a wide range of different numbers to be built at the same time, or even later than a higher numbered starship.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Actually, not necessarily as it specifically validates the original use of the "Hoof" insignia on the grounds that the Antares crew were not "starship crew" but something different (Material Supply Command would seem likely) that may or may not even be part of Starfleet (but is certainly part of the Federation Uniformed Services given the similarities in uniform).

Starfleet Defense should as I suggested not longer operate starships (as the memo specifically disallows that) but I'm not sure that defense-related agencies couldn't still be part of it. Similarly for Starfleet Research and Administrative Operations, as long as any personnel from these divisions on starships wear the Delta, OSO, SM, SR&D or SAO not deployed on starships could still wear the alternative insignia.

I wasn't talking about the Antares. Just so we're on the same page:

Tracey was a starship captain, as was Decker (who held the post of starship captain with the rank of commodore). The CMO of the Exeter also...wait for ... served aboard a starship, namely the Exeter. There really isn't any wiggle room that these three examples violate what the memo [https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starship-insignia.289381/#post-12123029] specified as the condition for using the arrowhead, as all three constitute examples of "starship personnel," being allowed into production only because they were too late to stop (either for the practical reason that I'd surmise being that money had already been spent, or physically due to the lack of real world time travel technology).

In other words, the Exeter rectangle and Constellation pretzel: oops!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I wasn't talking about the Antares. Just so we're on the same page:

Tracey was a starship captain, as was Decker (who held the post of starship captain with the rank of commodore). The CMO of the Exeter also...wait for ... served aboard a starship, namely the Exeter. There really isn't any wiggle room that these three examples violate what the memo [https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starship-insignia.289381/#post-12123029] specified as the condition for using the arrowhead, as all three constitute examples of "starship personnel," being allowed into production only because they were too late to stop (either for the practical reason that I'd surmise being that money had already been spent, or physically due to the lack of real world time travel technology).

In other words, the Exeter rectangle and Constellation pretzel: oops!

Yeah, I think we can agree on those.

 

[Phaser Two]

@Christopher's illustration of that concept: https://christopherlbennett.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/earlystarfleetuniform1.jpg

Wow, that's nice work. Not to go off topic but I like Christopher's early Starfleet uniform much better than the unis they came up with for Discovery.

 

[BillJ]

Wow, that's nice work. Not to go off topic but I like Christopher's early Starfleet uniform much better than the unis they came up with for Discovery.

I still don't get why the uniforms need to be so busy. I think TOS pretty much nailed it with a simple shirt emblem and sleeve stripes.

 

[Phaser Two]

I still don't get why the uniforms need to be so busy. I think TOS pretty much nailed it with a simple shirt emblem and sleeve stripes.

Agreed completely. I like the sleeve or cuff stripes in TOS too, a lot (I just wish there had been more Lt. J.G.s as the broken braids are so cool but IIRC that was a budgetary costuming issue). On TNG/DS9/VOY, I dug the collar pips, even more so with the DS9/VOY utility-style uniforms where you could more easily see the pips' width from the side; they were less visible from that angle on TNG's unis (and on ENT's). And it's the rank insignia that is going to bother me for a while on Discovery, I think; they're so weirdly placed and hard to see. I just don't see why they didn't go with the TOS stripes.

 

[Tomalak]

It's stripes that are the aberration though - the 22nd century and the mid-24 century use pips, the mid-23rd century has stripes, and the late-23rd to mid-24th century has the busy rank insignia.

The stripes only exist for about a decade, on the TOS and TMP uniforms. Before that the Cage and WNMHGB uniforms had a different set of solid bands that don't seem to indicate much at all.

 

[Timo]

Or then they indicate exactly what they should - the only rank mentioned in "The Cage" is Lieutenant, and the braid is fine for that.

I'd rather think the pips and stripes are always parallel, and sometimes in fact combined. They do a lot of this in the Abrams movies, but also with certain TNG flag uniforms and ENT dress and flag ones.

The pips, stars, diamonds and the like on the collar or shoulder are always "correct" for the Royal Navy / USN style, with four for Captain and three for Commander etc. The stripes are always of the Trek variant that generally misses one stripe from the "correct" set but with Captain misses 1.5 stripes. Seeing the two together in Abramsverse or "These Are The Voyages" just reinforces the notion that nothing has ever been otherwise...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

The pips, stars, diamonds and the like on the collar or shoulder are always "correct" for the Royal Navy / USN style, with four for Captain and three for Commander etc. The stripes are always of the Trek variant that generally misses one stripe from the "correct" set but with Captain misses 1.5 stripes. Seeing the two together in Abramsverse or "These Are The Voyages" just reinforces the notion that nothing has ever been otherwise...

Kelvin universe rank insignia is completely crazy. FFS, choose one system and stick to it, don't mix two different systems! If they wanted to use collar/shoulder insignia, it should have used a combination of bigger and smaller pips that correspond to the sleeve stripes. (like they did in TMP.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Kelvin universe rank insignia is completely crazy. FFS, choose one system and stick to it, don't mix two different systems! If they wanted to use collar/shoulder insignia, it should have used a combination of bigger and smaller pips that correspond to the sleeve stripes. (like they did in TMP.)

There is a logic to the flag officer pins, if they follow 'army' rather than 'navy' style (one for 'broad stripe only' commodores, five for 'four-stripe' Admiral of the Fleet/Fleet Admiral). However, I agree that the starship grades are messed up, if 'four pips' correspond the rank 'captain' (which may be split into two grades?), then 'three pips' should correspond to 'commander' (split between full and lt commander if desired) and two pips to 'lieutenant' (split into full and junior grade) and 'one' to 'ensign' as in UESF, rather than splitting it into Captain, Commander, Lieutenant Commander & Lieutenant, and Lieutenant JG & Ensign.

 

[Timo]

Why "army" stars for the Admirals? Pike ought to wear four, for his broad-plus-three-thin strips, and does. Marcus ought to match five with broad-plus-four-thin, but he only has the same sleeves as Pike - the fifth star is some sort of Head Honcho extra.

The line stars seem fine for most characters, as the half-star issue would only arise with McCoy and Scotty. Those characters split the difference, going in the remembrance scene for three and two, respectively (we don't see their sleeves). For all we care, there were promotions and demotions involved.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Why "army" stars for the Admirals? Pike ought to wear four, for his broad-plus-three-thin strips, and does. Marcus ought to match five with broad-plus-four-thin, but he only has the same sleeves as Pike - the fifth star is some sort of Head Honcho extra.

The line stars seem fine for most characters, as the half-star issue would only arise with McCoy and Scotty. Those characters split the difference, going in the remembrance scene for three and two, respectively (we don't see their sleeves). For all we care, there were promotions and demotions involved.

Timo Saloniemi

When I say "army stars" I mean +1 stars over the number of navy-style medium stripes.

Five "Lozenges" or "army stars" is General of the Army (historical and positional). This seems to correspond fairly well to C-in-C/Commander, Starfleet Marcus [presumably substantively next rank below].
Four "Lozenges" or "army stars" is Army/Marine General (historical), equivalent to Navy Admiral (who wears a broad stripe and three medium stripes) [Pike]
Three "Lozenges" or "army stars" is Army/Marine Lieutenant General (historical), equivalent to Navy Vice Admiral (who wears a broad stripe and two medium stripes).
Two "Lozenges" or "army stars" is Army/Marine Major General (historical), equivalent to Navy Rear Admiral (who wears a broad stripe and one medium stripes).
One "Lozenge" or "army star" is Army/Marine Brigadier General (historical). No real equivalent in most navies although Commodores (senior captains) may be assigned to equivalent billets and the US naval forces appoint "Rear Admiral, Lower Half"* at this grade (who wears a broad stripe only).

* Personally favour the FASA grade of Branch Admiral for this grade as it's easier to handle, depending on assignment Staff Admiral or (Task) Group Admiral or even the temporary US-only Commodore-Admiral rank would be preferable to RDML IMO.

Note, the TNG 'boxed pips' appear to follow the lozenges as above rather than the naval 'broad stripes' (Vice Admirals explictedly wear three 'boxed pips' not two).

 

[CAPTRousseau]

What did Bob Wesley wear? Hm, looks like it might have been the Starbase insignia. Maybe he was only temporarily commanding the Lexington.

That makes sense to me. But, as pointed out that makes CDRE Decker's insignia the anomaly.