My head canon is Mendez retired between the two episodes.
Starship Insignia
- Thread starter Tallguy
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My head canon is Mendez retired between the two episodes.
Or was promoted. They do have those during TOS after all.
I love the way a playful memo about a minor production detail becomes "harping on" and "ridiculous". A terrific demonstration of the first step in the molehill to mountain process.
Heh. Anyone reading more than three of Justman's memos knows that he took this stuff deadly seriously. He was the opposite of playful about every aspect of the show and rarely wrote a memo without purpose. To him, this "minor production detail" wasn't minor at all, or he wouldn't have bothered with it. The much more relevant mystery is why everyone ignored him when The Omega Glory came around, and happily designed a new insignia for the Exeter.
And in turn you may not have read my post carefully, as I didn't say that he took everything deadly seriously or "deadly serious," the latter of which is your misquote. In any case this exchange is probably best left there, but I'll be happy if anyone wants to continue discussing this issue in substance.
I'm a little confused. Do you think he was sincere in styling himself as "Chief Inquisitor" and genuinely thought the death penalty an appropriate response to a minor production mistake?
Or perhaps the memo was meant to amuse the recipient, and gently remind staff that production or design decisions should always be run past his office.
Or perhaps the memo was meant to amuse the recipient, and gently remind staff that production or design decisions should always be run past his office.
Sorry for the little confusion.
Justman in my opinion didn't really write for amusement. Gentle reminder is a good term. But even when he was clearly being funny, it was always mordant, and almost always pretty clearly in the service of some goal; I can't recall too many memos that he sent that he ever admitted that he wrote only because he liked to hear himself talk (type?). More puzzling - and I'll make this one last attempt to turn back to the thread topic - is why Theiss and the production crew ignored him for The Omega Glory, which featured, I believe, not just one non-delta shield insignia but two or more. Odd. Maybe Justman changed his mind in the space of what I think was a few months. In any case, if he was serious in any way about this, although I generally agree with him on almost every other memo he wrote (and I believe I've read them all), I believe he was being ridiculous about this "minor production mistake." "Minor" is a good word for it. It was cool to have different insignia for different ships and if it mattered so much, perhaps he should have caught the Decker mistake on set, unless he never saw Windom's costume, on or off. Just my opinion and YMMV.
Justman in my opinion didn't really write for amusement. Gentle reminder is a good term. But even when he was clearly being funny, it was always mordant, and almost always pretty clearly in the service of some goal; I can't recall too many memos that he sent that he ever admitted that he wrote only because he liked to hear himself talk (type?). More puzzling - and I'll make this one last attempt to turn back to the thread topic - is why Theiss and the production crew ignored him for The Omega Glory, which featured, I believe, not just one non-delta shield insignia but two or more. Odd. Maybe Justman changed his mind in the space of what I think was a few months. In any case, if he was serious in any way about this, although I generally agree with him on almost every other memo he wrote (and I believe I've read them all), I believe he was being ridiculous about this "minor production mistake." "Minor" is a good word for it. It was cool to have different insignia for different ships and if it mattered so much, perhaps he should have caught the Decker mistake on set, unless he never saw Windom's costume, on or off. Just my opinion and YMMV.
They may have been designed and made, so the decision was made to use them?
Or they decided somewhere along the way that they didn't want an obvious bad guy who "killed thousands" to wear the delta?
Hm, not sure how far in advance the costume department was working although IIRC, TOG was an old Roddenberry (?) script that had been around for a while. They definitely didn't waste production design items as we see from things like the Hortas' eggs turning up in Engineering, etc., and there was definitely a fair bit of costume recycling as well. (Shoot, that even happened in Generations with Riker and LaForge, let alone in TOS.) But it seems like the two or three Exeter patches (one of which could even have been shot on the first day or something for the shipboard scene, then sewn on to Tracey's uniform) would be relatively cheap to make in both labor and materials, so I could see them actually tossing them rather than run afoul of Justman's views on the matter.
I like that theory. And if I'm remembering that TOG was an old Roddenberry script, perhaps he intervened and shut Justman down on the patch issue, although by the end of the second season, I'm not really sure that Gene was that involved in day-to-day, if he ever was. Still, that's nice. I hadn't thought of that.
If I'm doing my research correctly this memo WAS for Omega Glory (December 1967). Doomsday Machine had come and gone months ago at this point.
Oh, for Pete's sake, Phaser Two. You are correct, of course. Sorry. I think my original point before I forgot when the memo came out was that I didn't see why he never mentioned Decker in this memo. Decker was a pretty important character and it seems odd that Justman wouldn't have noticed that or commented on the Constellation Pretzel instead of uniforms from Charlie X.
But in re-reading the memo, I'm also going to admit that I may be wrong about something else, too, and that's Justman's true intent. Over the years I've enjoyed these memos and I thought I had read this one correctly, but now that I see the mention of Roddenberry in there, I think those who concluded in this thread that Justman was not really all that concerned about this issue are correct, and maybe he just issued the memo because Roddenberry wanted him to do so. Since I usually agree with Justman on just about everything, that would make much more sense. Also, if I'm remembering the origin of Omega Glory correctly (someone jump in if I'm not - it's not my favorite episode although I like everything with Tracey and the scenes on the Exeter), wasn't that a bit of a pet project for Gene, and a possible second pilot that for some reason hung around until the end of S2 before getting filmed? If so, it would make sense that Gene would complain about something minor like this and that Justman (probably already knowing he was out the door) would hit back sarcastically in writing, copying everyone. The use of the passive voice "it was noticed" is another clue.
Sorry for consuming bandwidth with my probably incorrect theories.
The memo is pretty plain: Justman in this instance thought something like, "huh, is that insignia right?" and went to The Bird, asked, was told, "no" and sent out a memo.
Why he missed it in "Doomsday Machine" is another question. My guess? He'd seen Commodores wear a different insignia in previous episodes—as per The Menagerie—so Decker's badge maybe didn't jump out at him because of his rank, whereas seeing a different badge on Tracy, a fellow Captain and peer of Kirk's, made him decide to check what The Bird wanted. Simple enough.
Why he missed it in "Doomsday Machine" is another question. My guess? He'd seen Commodores wear a different insignia in previous episodes—as per The Menagerie—so Decker's badge maybe didn't jump out at him because of his rank, whereas seeing a different badge on Tracy, a fellow Captain and peer of Kirk's, made him decide to check what The Bird wanted. Simple enough.
Because Matt Decker's insignia in "The Doomsday Machine" isn't an error. It's something unique to Matt Decker, as he is something unique in TOS. Think it through. The answer is there. This is a puzzle (insignia use in TOS, and the memo provides he key). It's all there. I'll provide a clue.
Bill Thiess was as fastidious in the exicution of his designs as I've ever seen in a costume designer. He even cut up two delta badges to provide Ron Tracey and his CMO the proper department symbols (the star and the planet). So where is the command Star on Matt Decker's insignia? IF that's indeed a "Ship Assignment" insignia then where is that star? I said Matt Decker was unique and it's true. If we take the memo at face value, and apply what it teaches us about insignia use in TOS you soon begin to see that the production was very, very consistent in its use of symbols and emblems. So consider carefully and ask two questions:
1: What is it that makes Matt Decker unique in TOS?
2: Taking the memo into account with what it is that makes Commodore Decker special in TOS; then what insignia was his crew likely wearing?
If you can answer those two questions correctly (and I expect our readers with a military background to get this before civilians), then you'll understand just how fastidious the production really was about the delta, and why Bob was so irritated that he conferred with Gene and sent Bill the memo that he did.
Bill Thiess was as fastidious in the exicution of his designs as I've ever seen in a costume designer. He even cut up two delta badges to provide Ron Tracey and his CMO the proper department symbols (the star and the planet). So where is the command Star on Matt Decker's insignia? IF that's indeed a "Ship Assignment" insignia then where is that star? I said Matt Decker was unique and it's true. If we take the memo at face value, and apply what it teaches us about insignia use in TOS you soon begin to see that the production was very, very consistent in its use of symbols and emblems. So consider carefully and ask two questions:
1: What is it that makes Matt Decker unique in TOS?
2: Taking the memo into account with what it is that makes Commodore Decker special in TOS; then what insignia was his crew likely wearing?
If you can answer those two questions correctly (and I expect our readers with a military background to get this before civilians), then you'll understand just how fastidious the production really was about the delta, and why Bob was so irritated that he conferred with Gene and sent Bill the memo that he did.
Maybe you can enlighten as to your thoughts . . . ? I suspect you may be pursuing the "Decker was the only commodore we saw in more-than-temporary command of a starship" line of thinking, but it would be nice to know more.
As I mentioned, after careful (re)consideration I don't think Bob was irritated with anyone but Gene. His memo to Bill seems forced and dictated by orders, possibly because Gene felt highly protective of "The Omega Glory."
As I mentioned, after careful (re)consideration I don't think Bob was irritated with anyone but Gene. His memo to Bill seems forced and dictated by orders, possibly because Gene felt highly protective of "The Omega Glory."
Interestingly enough, @Maurice, @Mark 2000 and I discussed this topic when we recently got together.
As a Navy brat, I speculated that Theiss was going for something similar to the USN warfare badges, where the badges represent what part of the service you were in and/or your qualifications.
So in Starfleet's case:
- Delta: Starship service (the insignia within the badge shows your qualification/division: command, science/medical, engineering/ops)
- Starburst: Shore or starbase service
Heck, maybe we could further say Tracey and his CMO had some other specialty, qualification, or another part of the service as the reason for why they had different badges.
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The above is similar to the idea currently running in the post-ENT novels.
- Delta (c 2160s associated with the United Earth Space Probe Agency (aka Earth Starfleet) and responsible for Exploration. May have been renamed either the Starfleet Exploratory Division and/or Deep Space (Exploratory) Corps by the 2360s).
- Pretzel (c 2160s associated with the Andorian Guard and responsible for Defense. Starship assests appear to have merged with the UESPA/ED/DSEC by the late 23rd Century, although it's not unlikely that Starfleet Tactical (Weapons R & D), Starfleet Ground Forces, Starfleet Security (aka the Starfleet Criminal Investigative Service?), Starfleet Intelligence and potentially the Inspector General, Internal Affairs & JAG remain within this branch).
- Hoof (c 2160s associated with the Tellar Space Administration and responsible for operational support and supply. Appears to have been superseded by Operational Support Services, the Fleet Supply Office and possibly the Core of Engineers by the 24th Century).
- IDIC (c 2160s associated with the Vulcan Space Council and responsible for R & D and Administration. Starfleet Science, Starfleet Medical and Starfleet R & D would seem to fall under this branch, as would Starfleet Administrative Operations and Starfleet Bureau of Information and potentially Starfleet Communications. Starfleet officers attached to the Daystrom Institute are likely controlled by this branch as well).
- Bar (c 2160s associated with the Alpha Centauri Space Research Council, it doesn't appear to have discrete functions but instead supports the UESPA and VSC in their roles).
- Starburst (unknown c 2160s but starbase or "fleet command" would seem to be good guesses. Ground base personnel appear to wear a different wedge-shaped design).
@Christopher's illustration of that concept: https://christopherlbennett.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/earlystarfleetuniform1.jpg
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