Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

[Blip]

You clearly don't have kids

But, regardless, I personally love the new variety of Klingon ships. They don't look aesthetically pleasing to me and for me, that's the point. It's an alien culture. It shouldn't look nice to me.

Actually it's simply because I'm an AFOL that I dislike the concept of Lego getting mashed up with inappropriate materials ;P

As far as the new Klink vessels are concerned, I have no problem with something that's ugly. It's more that it just isn't designed very well, particularly when considering CBS' claims that the series is supposed to sit alongside TOS and share the same universe. As with most elements of DSC, it feels very much like they threw money at the production, but there was no real thought going on behind the scenes; no attempt to honor the styles that came before (instead throwing almost everything out so as to put their own carelessly unimaginative stamp on the universe). The result is often that it looks plenty expensive, yet vapid, soulless and generic - and doesn't fit with the rest of the universe it purportedly shares, let alone during the era in which it's supposed to be set. It's lazy, and there is no need for it.

(And no, I don't want cardboard sets, people! It is possible to update an aesthetic without completely trashing it...)

 

[fireproof78]

I agree. But they would've worked out decently enough if Discovery had been a reboot. Since it supposedly isn't, they stick out like a fucking sore thumb.

It's an interstellar empire. Seeing all possible visual variations in past works strikes me as rather unlikely.

As far as the new Klink vessels are concerned, I have no problem with something that's ugly. It's more that it just isn't designed very well, particularly when considering CBS' claims that the series is supposed to sit alongside TOS and share the same universe. As with most elements of DSC, it feels very much like they threw money at the production, but there was no real thought going on behind the scenes; no attempt to honor the styles that came before (instead throwing almost everything out so as to put their own carelessly unimaginative stamp on the universe). The result is often that it looks plenty expensive, yet vapid, soulless and generic - and doesn't fit with the rest of the universe it purportedly shares, let alone during the era in which it's supposed to be set. It's lazy, and there is no need for it.

Couldn't disagree more. I can find lineage traces in all the design work.

 

[Dukhat]

It's an interstellar empire. Seeing all possible visual variations in past works strikes me as rather unlikely.

Actually, I find it more confusing that we didn't see these possible designs in past works. Where were they in TOS, TNG, DS9, and ENT? Because all the ships in those series looked relatively similar.

 

[Jesse1066]

Actually, I find it more confusing that we didn't see these possible designs in past works. Where were they in TOS, TNG, DS9, and ENT? Becuase all the ships in those series looked relatively similar.

I imagine L'Rell ordered them all to be scrapped to build the fleet of D7s.

 

[Tuskin38]

We only saw 2 Season 1 DSC designs in Season 2 IIRC, the BoP in the flashback showing what happened to Momma Burnham, and the Cleave ship in the season finale.

 

[Dukhat]

I imagine L'Rell ordered them all to be scrapped to build the fleet of D7s.

Even if that were the case (which I'm not quite sure I buy), where were they in ENT?

 

[cooleddie74]

I think most of the DSC Season 1 Klingon ships look like hot garbage covered in a layer of even hotter trash but ENT was a century earlier and I think it's okay to relegate the Season 1 Klingon designs to the 23rd century and to just individual Houses within the Empire. The Klingon Empire was a unified military force until the upheaval sometime prior to DSC and T'Kuvma's rise to prominence so there'd be no need for individual Klingon Houses to have their own unique warships in combat.

 

[Timo]

I'd like to think the more ornate things weren't warships at all, but just random junk that happened to be nearby when T'Kumva made his summons. Of course all of it was more battleworthy than Starfleet's heaviest dreadnoughts - but nevertheless only the small BoPs and the badass Qoghs, and perhaps the flat D7 lookalikes, were proper warships, vessels seen doing combat later on. And

1) small ships have short life cycles, so the BoP emerged after ENT and went out of fashion before ST3:TSfS
2) the more ornate D7 lookalikes were D2s and D3s that had accrued ornaments over the centuries and were phased out soon thereafter
3) the Qogh was a House of Kor thing, and when that House went downhill (and its elder son sent to occupy a worthless backwater planet in the next war-to-be), the ships failed to get the required refits...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jesse1066]

Even if that were the case (which I'm not quite sure I buy), where were they in ENT?

Not made yet probably, but there are some minor similarities between some DSC Klingon ships and the ones in Enterprise, mainly the extra struts that some of them had outside the hull. I don't really like most of the Klingon ships in season 1 of Discovery, but there's about a hundred years between ENT and DSC, so I don't think it's a problem that they weren't in Enterprise.

 

[cooleddie74]

And to be fair if we exclude the accidental reuse of the K'tinga battle cruiser model in "Unexpected(ENT)" then there were just a few different kinds of Klingon warships shown during the 2150s and one was an earlier model of the Bird-of-Prey while a second was a warship that had already been mentioned in DS9 but never shown. The Raptor-class scout was about the only truly unique class of Klingon vessel we saw in ENT except for the freighter that the refugees are escaping aboard in "Judgment."

 

[Dukhat]

Not made yet probably, but there are some minor similarities between some DSC Klingon ships and the ones in Enterprise, mainly the extra struts that some of them had outside the hull. I don't really like most of the Klingon ships in season 1 of Discovery, but there's about a hundred years between ENT and DSC, so I don't think it's a problem that they weren't in Enterprise.

What I mean is, if the Klingon houses weren't united until DSC S2, then one assumes that they weren't united in ENT's day. So there should be all kinds of different designs for the different houses in ENT, just like S1 of DSC. But there weren't. There were just ships that resembled the D7's and BoPs that came much later.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, I find it more confusing that we didn't see these possible designs in past works. Where were they in TOS, TNG, DS9, and ENT? Because all the ships in those series looked relatively similar.

ENT I can't account for (nor do I care to). Though I could surmise that the accent of the warrior class noted in "Affliction" might have led to the more ornate designs for the different great houses.

For the rest, the Empire is far less focused on individual Houses and more on a united Empire. Which means that designs were produced to support more uniformity in the Klingon Empire.

What I mean is, if the Klingon houses weren't united until DSC S2, then one assumes that they weren't united in ENT's day.

Eh, the Klingons go through a lot of different phases so I think it is not an automatic assumption they were not united in ENT. They have started out as such, and whatever united them before fell apart and the Great Houses rose up, then they were reunited come DSC.

Again, there is a 100 some-odd years for them to have many different governments.

 

[cooleddie74]

What I mean is, if the Klingon houses weren't united until DSC S2, then one assumes that they weren't united in ENT's day. So there should be all kinds of different designs for the different houses in ENT, just like S1 of DSC. But there weren't. There were just ships that resembled the D7's and BoPs that came much later.

But if you watched ENT then you know that the Houses were unified with a unified military force at that point in history. The breakdown in political unity and military cohesion and central organization didn't happen until sometime after ENT and the Augment Virus incident.

 

[Jesse1066]

What I mean is, if the Klingon houses weren't united until DSC S2, then one assumes that they weren't united in ENT's day. So there should be all kinds of different designs for the different houses in ENT, just like S1 of DSC. But there weren't. There were just ships that resembled the D7's and BoPs that came much later.

That makes sense. At least they didn't have uniforms, but there probably should have also been more ship variety in Enterprise.

 

[Dukhat]

But if you watched ENT then you know that the Houses were unified with a unified military force at that point in history.

Sorry, I don't remember that.

The breakdown in political unity and military cohesion and central organization didn't happen until sometime after ENT and the Augment Virus incident.

Is that just conjecture, or was that stated somewhere?

 

[cooleddie74]

The Admiral at the beginning of "The Vulcan Hello(DSC)" says that the Klingon Empire has been in disarray and disunity for "generations" by 2256. At the end of ENT Agent Harris of Section 31 tells Archer and Reed that the intervention to stabilize the Empire after the outbreak of the Augment Virus means that it will be stable for years to come. Clearly something happened after ENT ended that led to the disunity we see in Season 1 of DSC.

There's a unified Klingon military in ENT but no longer one in Season 1 of DSC. Clearly something happened.

 

[Noname Given]

What I mean is, if the Klingon houses weren't united until DSC S2, then one assumes that they weren't united in ENT's day. So there should be all kinds of different designs for the different houses in ENT, just like S1 of DSC. But there weren't. There were just ships that resembled the D7's and BoPs that came much later.

Things change all the time. IE - The Empire could have been united in ENT's time; but had one or more civil wars (they seemed to occur a LOT) that split the Empire. Not everything progresses 'forward' in a straight line.

 

[cooleddie74]

The carnage wreaked by the Augment Virus could have led to a lot of turmoil within Klingon society as entire families and Houses were affected and the political environment had to adapt to cope with the changes. Clearly it couldn't cope with something.

 

[Dukhat]

Things change all the time. IE - The Empire could have been united in ENT's time; but had one or more civil wars (they seemed to occur a LOT) that split the Empire. Not everything progresses 'forward' in a straight line.

You mean..it's not a retcon?

The carnage wreaked by the Augment Virus could have led to a lot of turmoil within Klingon society as entire families and Houses were affected and the political environment had to adapt to cope with the changes. Clearly it couldn't cope with something.

But the Augment virus's effects seem to have had no bearing whatsoever on Klingon society by the time of DSC. Nothing was mentioned that the houses were divided because of that. As a matter of fact, nothing about it was mentioned at all, as if...it never existed...

 

[cooleddie74]

DSC pulls a lot of lazy crap but in this case I don't think this is a retcon, just that the Klingon Empire of 2256 isn't the same one we had last seen in 2154.