I think he preferred "apocryphal" over "non-canon".
Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard
- Thread starter pst
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In 2017, 18 and 19, I passionately argued here that Discovery was a rebooted continuity and not the world of TOS. Doesn't look like it, doesn't feel like it. But now they've expanded and made this new(ish) Star Trek Universe of shows, made the bare-minimum of changes to Discovery (Klingon hair, Pike had the Enterprise's holocomms ripped out, Starfleet classifies everything etc), are connecting Discovery with Picard (which is indisputably a Next Gen follow-up) in myriad visual ways (shuttles, insignia, the Discoprise in the museum, "old" Disco ships at Utopia Planitia in the Short Trek) there's really no point fighting it. Did TOS Spock have a sister, the classic 1701 have swept-back nacelle pylons and hundreds of drones and fighters? I don't think so, but as far as 2020 Trek goes, that's how it is. And that's okay because at the end of the day... it's just a TV show. And it's entertaining me.
Whose fighting it? Discovery just doesn’t work as a prequel for me. I’m not going to be dishonest with myself over it. It also doesn’t make it a bad TV show, the uninspired stories do that. I could absolutely love the show and I still wouldn’t think it fit with the rest.
I just can’t get over the idea the only way something has value anymore is if it is “canon”.
Now I’m going back to reading the decidedly non-canon Star Trek: New Frontier.
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Gonzo
Guest
Have you forgotten the 2009 Enterprise Size Thread.
I do recall a certain poster (who shall remain nameless of course) spending a lot of his/her time doing exactly what you are accusing @BillJ of.
“Canon” isn’t the problem word here. “Prime” is. CBS used that buzzword to differentiate DSC from the Kelvin Timeline movies, but then all of a sudden it turned into this mantra about DSC being a direct prequel to TOS, and not just “not the Kelvin movies.”
CBS never cared about the ‘prime’ timeline, or if any of it fit together both visually or story-wise. They just didn’t want people to be confused that it took place in the same universe as the Paramount films. It was people like Kurtzman, other producers, and fans on this site and others who made it such a big deal. Well, this fan doesn’t quite buy it. And that’s ok, because I don’t have to. Because CBS sure doesn’t care if I believe it or not, as long as I spend my money on CBSAA and DVDs/Blu-rays.
Have you forgotten the 2009 Enterprise Size Thread.
I do recall a certain poster (who shall remain nameless of course) spending a lot of his/her time doing exactly what you are accusing @BillJ of.
I remember it well. That's because some posters showed the ability to realize that their personal dislike of something put forward by the showrunners doesn't count as a valid argument of its "canonicity".
That's not how I recall it going down. From the beginning, it was advertised as "10 years before Kirk and Spock's original adventures on the Enterprise". I think CBS's intention was direct from the beginning. Since it takes place in 2255, that immediately rules out the Kelvin timeline.
I only remember a commercial that stated ‘ten years before Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise.’ No specifics about which Kirk, Spock, and Enterprise. And anyway, that’s meaningless PR from the CBS marketing department.
Despite the Kelvinverse being in the more recent collective memory, I think when the average joe hears "10 years before Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise", their go-to thought is TOS. The latter had much more of an impact on society, the former came and went (lost, like tears in rain).
PS: You're welcome for putting that Vangelis piece in your head!
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Gonzo
Guest
Its a bit like how a few couldn't accept that the Enterprise was larger, even when the show runners confirmed the new size outright.
You are really out on a limb here, just saying.
At this point we should be seeing a lot of Galaxy Class ships.Are we going to see famous Excelsior-class in Star Trek Picard show?
Despite the Kelvinverse being in the more recent collective memory, I think when the average joe hears "10 years before Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise", their go-to thought is TOS. The latter had much more of an impact on society, the former came and went (lost, like tears in rain).
PS: You're welcome for putting that Vangelis piece in your head!
CBS’s target audience were the people that spent millions of dollars to see those Abrams films, not the aging TOS fanbase. But because CBS didn’t own those films, they had to make sure their target audience wasn’t confused as to what they were actually seeing.
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Gonzo
Guest
Some will have been lost off screen, highly likely new versions will have been built as well as the Sovereign class doesn't have the volume the Galaxy class has for scientific pursuits.
Many of the mothballed designs will have been returned to service for the war, its reasonable to conclude they would stay in service until new more suitable ships can be built, it will take time to replace them, not helped by the loss of Mars.
We could see petty much anything at this point, I think some are more likely than others though such as the Enterprise E.
I would like to see an Odyssey class but for now its comic/book only and not canon.
If we see any ships in the 2399 portions of PIC, they will be John Eaves-designed. Therefore, no Excelsiors, no Mirandas, no FC ships, nothing from STO, and no other ships that Eaves himself didn’t create (other than the Enterprise-D model from Picard’s dream.) And any ‘mothballed’ ships probably won’t look all that different from anything new he designs.
This is nice, but no one is saying people can’t interpret art the way they want. I am saying that there has to be a common epistemically shared frame of reference for a franchise like trek and for better or worse the content owners get to say what’s in what universe/continuity. Fans are free to wish otherwise and ignore parts of the franchise they don’t like but they are not entitled to (as an example) remove an entire series from the prime universe because it looks different from a show made 50 years ago. I even thought the writers were far too generous to those people by creating the super convoluted “hologram communication broke the enterprise so we ripped it out” stuff. Just dumb. But they did it and it’s canon so I have to live with too, as it were.
I think the differences in Discovery and Picard (to a smaller degree) rise pretty far above just “inconsistencies”
TAS, TMP and TWOK all came after TOS. So changes there can be attributed to natural design evolution. “18 months of redesigning and refitting the Enterprise” and all that.
If a ship can be refit before it can be refit again.
So they didn't have cheap plastic models, badly tailored costuming, and cardboard sets. Does that mean anything set before TOS must adhere to these aesthetics? Please explain Enterprise.
Technicality -- it looked like it was made out of cardboard. With a bigger budget things looked better. That doesn't mean all shows set before the first have to look like they're made on the cheap. Of course you knew that.
