Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

[Enterprise1701]

I know at that point no one had seen Romulans for some time, right? Was The Neutral Zone the first time anyone had seen the big greenies? Or had those been the Rommie's rides when they vanished?

In TNG 1.26 "The Neutral Zone", Data recounted, to no one contradicting, that in 2364, the Federation had not had official contact since 2311. This was a terrible writing choice which was blatantly undermined by nearly every subsequent story involving Romulans, especially TNG 3.15 "Yesterday's Enterprise".

 

[C.E. Evans]

In TNG 1.26 "The Neutral Zone", Data recounted, to no one contradicting, that in 2364, the Federation had not had official contact since 2311. This was a terrible writing choice which was blatantly undermined by nearly every subsequent story involving Romulans, especially TNG 3.15 "Yesterday's Enterprise".

(emphasis mine)
It might not be actually. The Romulans withdrew from any further contact with the Federation, but had basically an unofficial war with the Klingons beginning at some point following their signing of the Khitomer Accords. In TOS, the Klingons and the Romulans had pretty much joined forces with the Federation as their mutual adversary. A couple of decades later, the Romulans may have viewed the Klingons as being weak & vulnerable after the loss of Praxis and decided to take advantage of the situation by forcefully removing the Klingon colonies along their borders--including Narendra III and Khitomer itself. All this was going on while the Romulans steered clear of the Federation and its allies because it might have been foolish to have two conflicts going on at the same time.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise," we saw an alternate timeline in which the Enterprise-C simply vanished near Narendra III without a trace. No one knew what happened to the ship, only that it disappeared near a Klingon colony. There was no record of that Enterprise ever encountering the Romulans by either the Federation or the Klingons in that timeline.

Now things do admittedly get a little messy in the restored timeline in which the Enterprise-C was known to be destroyed by the Romulans while coming to the defense of Narendra III. The only way around that wrinkle is that the Romulans did not reopen relations with the Federation after the incident and did not respond to the Federation's queries or accusations of the ship's destruction. It's not that much of a stretch that while the Federation may have held the Romulans responsible for the loss of the Enterprise-C, they did not aggressively pursue the matter in order to maintain the otherwise relative peace in the Quadrant.

(whew!)

 

[fireproof78]

The Federation may have inadvertently given the Romulans an advantage with the close working relationship in TUC.

 

[C.E. Evans]

"Mister President, they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time."
--Romulan Ambassador Nanclus to the Federation President regarding a proposed preemptive strike on the Klingons
(2293)

 

[Saul]

I'm not gonna deny that his site isn't a wonderful resource for gathering certain bits of info or pics...

That said...

You got to let go of this resentment and taking umbrage with people who have different opinions to you on starships. Someone complains about a ship size and its a "hissy fit" to you. People have different opinions. Why do we need to discuss a person and tear them down for 2 to 3 pages in a starships thread each time you dislike what they said?

 

[Dukhat]

Isn't that the general consensus for the TNG and beyond when they showed new ships? The only real outliers were the blink and you miss background ships, and the Defiant.

There's a bit of a difference between, say, making a new design like the Nebula class that was clearly inspired by the design for the Reliant as far as 'lineage' goes, and just taking the Nebula class and making a new 'skin' for it, which is basically how STO creates most of their designs.

You got to let go of this resentment and taking umbrage with people who have different opinions to you on starships. Someone complains about a ship size and its a "hissy fit" to you. People have different opinions. Why do we need to discuss a person and tear them down for 2 to 3 pages in a starships thread each time you dislike what they said?

I have to agree. I empathize with Bernd and tend to have similar feelings about how he views this fictional universe, only I'm here to stand up for myself whenever someone here feels the need to tell me how I'm supposed to view this fictional universe, as if I need their opinion as to how I need to think. If I were Bernd I would never want to participate on this site.

 

[HotRod]

You got to let go of this resentment

I have no such thing.

Someone complains about a ship size and its a "hissy fit" to you.

It's not the complaint about the size, it's the outright rejection of facts, when presented with them, that has drawn my ire.

It's the representation of a segment of the fandom that chooses to act as gatekeepers that annoys me. The "true fans" that know better then you or I. I'm sure you know the type.

Why do we need to discuss a person and tear them down for 2 to 3 pages in a starships thread each time you dislike what they said?

Well mostly, in this case, because it turns out they're a huge pile of shit. I just figured they were arrogant. Turns out it's even more then that.

Learn something new everyday.

 

[HotRod]

I empathize with Bernd and tend to have similar feelings about how he views this fictional universe,

It's one thing to argue over opinions, as we have in the past. It's genuinely enjoyable to discuss, sometimes passionately, the Starships and such we hold so dear.

It's something else entirely to argue against facts.

In the case of EAS, we have someone who, when presented with facts, rejects them because they don't fit his desired narrative. And, as I did state; it's his site. He is free to do as he please. But it definitely presents an image of arrogance. Nevermind the gatekeeping tendencies others have brought up.

Plus, as it turns out, he has a whole other side of him I didn't even know about. A side I cannot tolerate. So I'll refrain from visiting his site from here on.

 

[Dukhat]

It's something else entirely to argue against facts.

Facts?

At one point, it was a 'fact' that the TOS Enterprise was 289 meters. Now it's a 'fact' that the SNW Enterprise, which is supposed to be the same ship, is 442 meters.

There are no 'facts' here. This is a fictional universe whose properties change at the whim of whoever is currently in charge of making it all up. And as far as I'm concerned, people can interpret these 'facts' however they see fit. Nobody is right or wrong, not even the people who slavishly devote themselves to the gospel of Roddenberry Berman Abrams Kurtzman Fuller Matalas.

I enjoy discussing this stuff too. That's why I'm here. But when the personal attacks start simply because someone has a different opinion, that's not cool. (I'm not saying you specifically made an attack on Bernd; I'm just saying that the vitriol I've seen here by certain members against him is quite unwarranted IMHO.)

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Facts?

At one point, it was a 'fact' that the TOS Enterprise was 289 meters. Now it's a 'fact' that the SNW Enterprise, which is supposed to be the same ship, is 442 meters.

There are no 'facts' here. This is a fictional universe whose properties change at the whim of whoever is currently in charge of making it all up. And as far as I'm concerned, people can interpret these 'facts' however they see fit. Nobody is right or wrong, not even the people who slavishly devote themselves to the gospel of Roddenberry Berman Abrams Kurtzman Fuller Matalas.

Something is going to happen to the TOS Enterprise near the end of Pike's Captaincy that the SNW Connie gets soo beat up in a battle, that once it gets repaired, it'll eventually shrink from the SNW's length of 442 meters, down to 289 meters of the TOS Connie and get handed over to James T. Kirk for his command, while Pike moves on to Admiralty.

If you can borrow the parts of the original USS Titan and shove it into a Neo Constitution Class and call it the Titan-A, there's no reason that after a severe battle where the SNW Enterprise will eventually survive, but limp home very bruised and battered, that a fixed up Connie will end up shorter / smaller due to updates in it's design and just be called the "Constitution Class".

At that point in StarFleet history, they won't have thought of appending letters behind the ship because upper brass doesn't think it's worth doing so.

That would easily fix "Canon" and solve the SNW Connie & TOS Connie length / size issues.

 

[Sketcher]

I just chalk up changes to starship design/size to some time travel shenanigans (because when is that not happening in Trek?) with someone altering something in the past. So sometimes the Enterprise looks like its from SNW, other times from TOS.

 

[Enterprise1701]

You got to let go of this resentment and taking umbrage with people who have different opinions to you on starships. Someone complains about a ship size and its a "hissy fit" to you. People have different opinions. Why do we need to discuss a person and tear them down for 2 to 3 pages in a starships thread each time you dislike what they said?

Why are you in this conversation?

 

[Dukhat]

Something is going to happen to the TOS Enterprise near the end of Pike's Captaincy that the SNW Connie gets soo beat up in a battle, that once it gets repaired, it'll eventually shrink from the SNW's length of 442 meters, down to 289 meters of the TOS Connie and get handed over to James T. Kirk for his command, while Pike moves on to Admiralty.

If you can borrow the parts of the original USS Titan and shove it into a Neo Constitution Class and call it the Titan-A, there's no reason that after a severe battle where the SNW Enterprise will eventually survive, but limp home very bruised and battered, that a fixed up Connie will end up shorter / smaller due to updates in it's design and just be called the "Constitution Class".

At that point in StarFleet history, they won't have thought of appending letters behind the ship because upper brass doesn't think it's worth doing so.

That would easily fix "Canon" and solve the SNW Connie & TOS Connie length / size issues.

I highly doubt the scenario you propose is going to happen.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I highly doubt the scenario you propose is going to happen.

Stranger things have happened.

Titan-A has Luna-class Titan parts as some of it's lineage. Yet is considered the same family?

And StarShips are renamed Willy/Nilly once approved by StarFleet upper brass for a "Justifable Reason".

 

[Saul]

Well mostly, in this case, because it turns out they're a huge pile of shit. I just figured they were arrogant. Turns out it's even more then that.

Thing is, you already disliked him before you knew anything else. You'll use whatever new info against him to place your opinion above his as being right.

And last time I checked he (Bernd) sometimes posted here so calling him a "huge pile of shit" is flaming another member on this board.

Why are you in this conversation?

Because I entered the thread to read and talk about starships. If the sign says "men's toilet" then that's what you expect to find. Feel free to take the discussion elsewhere.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Because I entered the thread to read and talk about starships. If the sign says "men's toilet" then that's what you expect to find. Feel free to take the discussion elsewhere.

A conversation about starships will inevitably involve the nature of sources of information, and I, for one, am thankful to HotRod for providing me new information about a relevant bias in Ex Astris Scientia. Your attempt to act better than anyone by shutting down negative facts is frivolous.

 

[HotRod]

Facts?

At one point, it was a 'fact' that the TOS Enterprise was 289 meters. Now it's a 'fact' that the SNW Enterprise, which is supposed to be the same ship, is 442 meters.

There are no 'facts' here. This is a fictional universe whose properties change at the whim of whoever is currently in charge of making it all up. And as far as I'm concerned, people can interpret these 'facts' however they see fit. Nobody is right or wrong, not even the people who slavishly devote themselves to the gospel of Roddenberry Berman Abrams Kurtzman Fuller Matalas.

I enjoy discussing this stuff too. That's why I'm here. But when the personal attacks start simply because someone has a different opinion, that's not cool. (I'm not saying you specifically made an attack on Bernd; I'm just saying that the vitriol I've seen here by certain members against him is quite unwarranted IMHO.)

When I say facts, in this instance, I'm referring to basic things like that the JJPrise is big, Disco and SNW are prime, etc. The things that have been outright stated and confirmed by official sources.

 

[Dukhat]

Titan-A has Luna-class Titan parts as some of it's lineage. Yet is considered the same family?

It’s not considered the same family. The Titan-A is a completely different class than the Luna.

A conversation about starships will inevitably involve the nature of sources of information, and I, for one, am thankful to HotRod for providing me new information about a relevant bias in Ex Astris Scientia. Your attempt to act better than anyone by shutting down negative facts is frivolous.

He isn’t acting better than anyone. He’s saying that we all need to lay off badmouthing Bernd and get back to talking about starships. And he’s right.

 

[HotRod]

Thing is, you already disliked him before you knew anything else. You'll use whatever new info against him to place your opinion above his as being right.

Disliked, is a strong word. I was annoyed by his biased arrogance and gatekeeping, but I still occasionally used the site.

I disliked him once I found out about his...... less then acceptable attitude.

And last time I checked he (Bernd) sometimes posted here so calling him a "huge pile of shit" is flaming another member on this board.

You have an awful habit of defending huge piles of shit.

Because I entered the thread to read and talk about starships. If the sign says "men's toilet" then that's what you expect to find. Feel free to take the discussion elsewhere.

Get off the the cross. We need the wood. Discussions, last time I checked, were free to take various twist and turns.

 

[HotRod]

get back to talking about starships.

We did. Last thing said on the matter was yesterday afternoon. @Saul decided to restart the issue over 8 hours later, after the conversation had reached its conclusion.