Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

[fireproof78]

"The Cage" happens in 2254. The Enterprise's appearances in Discovery happen in 2258. How is this possible since the critical lynchpin of your entire argument is a single line of dialogue indicating that the Enterprise was apparently built in 2265?

TMP refit was a completely different ship.

Ok, not completely different, but basically rebuilt. And apparently that refit got 20 years. So, Excelsiors, Mirandas and Oberths must be getting updates constantly.

 

[Sci]

Is this issue really worth continuing to argue about? @fireproof78 's reaction is emotional, a matter of subjective aesthetics -- he said so himself. To him, seeing a ship from the 2280s in the 2400s disrupts his ability to suspend disbelief. For others, it doesn't. There are rationalizations we can apply if we want an in-universe explanation, but ultimately this isn't really a line of argument that's gonna advance or go anywhere -- you can't argue with subjective aesthetic preferences.

 

[Unicron]

I mean, it's certainly possible that the NCC-21445 is of the same class as the NCC-2000 and that the one we saw in "The Star Gazer" was the 21445. However, I'm disinclined to accept barely-legible-on-high-def okudagrams from the era where onscreen displays weren't meant to be seen on standard def TVs as canonically binding. I'm more likely to consider onscreen displays that were designed to be clearly legible as binding, and we saw Elnor looking at a large display of an Excelsior-class starship prominently featuring the caption "NCC-2000" when he received his ship assignment. So I'm inclined to take this as retconning the 21445 out of continuity (if it was ever in continuity), and to interpret the Excelsior we saw in "The Star Gazer" as being Captain Sulu's ship.

I might be wrong, as I don't know if we'll see those Academy displays again anytime soon, but I'm not convinced that the Excelsior Raffi and Elnor are serving on is intended to be the original USS Excelsior, virtually unchanged (apparently) in its appearance. There's a plaque underneath the display with Sulu's name on it, and the next display shows the original Constellation class Stargazer (which Picard commanded, including the TNG era dates) followed by one showing the Galaxy class E-D (visible here, rather blurrily, over Elnor's shoulder). The visible text on the Stargazer's plaque even hints it's now a museum piece on fleet display.

I might have to rewatch the episode or look at better screencaps when they become available, but to me this suggests Elnor is just looking at the Excelsior's history and not at any sort of assignment screen. The Excelsior might wind up looking different, even it's clearly based on the original design. But I'm inclined to think these are just historical displays and nothing more.

 

[fireproof78]

Is this issue really worth continuing to argue about? @fireproof78 's reaction is emotional, a matter of subjective aesthetics -- he said so himself. To him, seeing a ship from the 2280s in the 2400s disrupts his ability to suspend disbelief. For others, it doesn't. There are rationalizations we can apply if we want an in-universe explanation, but ultimately this isn't really a line of argument that's gonna advance or go anywhere -- you can't argue with subjective aesthetic preferences.

I thank you for your kind description.

 

[Sci]

I might be wrong, as I don't know if we'll see those Academy displays again anytime soon, but I'm not convinced that the Excelsior Raffi and Elnor are serving on is intended to be the original USS Excelsior, virtually unchanged (apparently) in its appearance. There's a plaque underneath the display with Sulu's name on it, and the next display shows the original Constellation class Stargazer (which Picard commanded, including the TNG era dates) followed by one showing the Galaxy class E-D (visible here, rather blurrily, over Elnor's shoulder). The visible text on the Stargazer's plaque even hints it's now a museum piece on fleet display.

I might have to rewatch the episode or look at better screencaps when they become available, but to me this suggests Elnor is just looking at the Excelsior's history and not at any sort of assignment screen. The Excelsior might wind up looking different, even it's clearly based on the original design. But I'm inclined to think these are just historical displays and nothing more.

Ah, good catch! That's entirely possible too. Maybe it is the 21445 then. (I still prefer to imagine it's the 2000 though. )

 

[Unicron]

I'm hoping to we get to see more detail on those plaques once TrekCore has proper screenshots up, as the Stargazer and Excelsior ones seemed to be the most clearly visible. As mentioned, I might rewatch the episode and see what I can catch on another go.

I personally am open to the idea that we might see a modified, more futurized Excelsior variant. The one in the wide fleet shots seemed to have such a design, but it's hard to tell exactly. That just seems more logical to me than an older stock Excelsior, so I'm keeping an open mind.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

The visible text on the Stargazer's plaque even hints it's now a museum piece on fleet display.

There’s an interview at TrekMovie with Terry Matalas released today where he said they’re intending this Stargazer to be a refit of the original.

Like the TMP Enterprise, it’s a massively updated refit. I like to think of it as the story of the broom: If one day you replace the handle, and another day the brush, is it still the same broom? We thought of it as a vessel endlessly repaired and upgraded, brought in-line with current-future tech, so that somewhere underneath all the lights and polish are the bones of Picard’s original ship. Does it make sense? I don’t know. But I sure like the spirit of it.

 

[Unicron]

I've seen that, and I admit I'm not overly convinced. I think the newer Stargazer works much better as a distinct design based on its famous namesake, and the plaque text is seemingly at odds with that idea. I'd like to see more of the text, assuming that's actually possible in the episode or if perhaps we might learn the full text examples from a production source.

 

[Vale]

TMP refit was a completely different ship.

Ok, not completely different, but basically rebuilt. And apparently that refit got 20 years.

Dating The Motion Picture is uncertain but it can't have been earlier than 2271 (Kirk has been chief of Starfleet operations for 2½ years) or later than 2278 (the "monster maroon" uniforms are current by then), which means the Enterprise refit lasted for no more than 14 years and no less than 7 years.

So, Excelsiors, Mirandas and Oberths must be getting updates constantly.

Clearly they are since in the 2360s and 2370s they have TNG-era LCARS interfaces and holodecks. Once more, I don't understand why you're inventing problems where none exist.

 

[fireproof78]

Once more, I don't understand why you're inventing problems where none exist.

With due respect, as @Sci put it so succinctly, this is an emotional reaction. It is not logical, it is not rational, it does not make sense. It will not be argued, cajoled, or persuaded, When I see them on the screen my suspension of disbelief is broken, briefly, but it is.

I cannot put it more clearly.

 

[Sci]

There’s an interview at TrekMovie with Terry Matalas released today where he said they’re intending this Stargazer to be a refit of the original.

That just seems silly to me. But whatever -- it's explicitly contradicted by the dialogue.

 

[Vale]

With due respect, as @Sci put it so succinctly, this is an emotional reaction. It is not logical, it is not rational, it does not make sense. It will not be argued, cajoled, or persuaded, When I see them on the screen my suspension of disbelief is broken, briefly, but it is.

I cannot put it more clearly.

I really hope I don't see you bellyaching at anyone for disliking Discovery in that case, even though it's trash.

 

[fireproof78]

I really hope I don't see you bellyaching at anyone for disliking Discovery in that case, even though it's trash.

At this point there is no one who likes Discovery.

 

[Sci]

I really hope I don't see you bellyaching at anyone for disliking Discovery in that case, even though it's trash.

Having a subjective negative aesthetic reaction to one minor creative choice in a production is really not the same thing as arbitrarily trashing an entire production.

 

[Vale]

Having a subjective negative aesthetic reaction to one minor creative choice in a production is really not the same thing as arbitrarily trashing an entire production.

But apparently "it's an emotional reaction" is the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card that means you don't need to justify or explain anything

 

[fireproof78]

But apparently "it's an emotional reaction" is the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card that means you don't need to justify or explain anything

I've tried. I have stated my opinions and they are, to put it bluntly, not good enough. The ships stand out as poor fits in the century they are supposed to be with. So, I'm wrong, you're right. That is what is expected, right?

 

[Vale]

 

[fireproof78]

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

That just seems silly to me. But whatever -- it's explicitly contradicted by the dialogue.

It’s also directly described as a refit in the episode’s dialogue:

The older these refits get, the younger they look.

But Star Trek containing contradictory information is nothing new, or irreconcilable.

 

[dupersuper]

And Picard.
And Orville.
And humor.
And sex.
And certain colors.
And nostalgia.
And posts longer than a half-dozen words.
And fun (it's in the eye of the beholder, right?)

I think I'm gladly unable to envision such a profoundly joyless existence.

Don't forget time travel.