Conjecture? lets see - 990.7 Light Years in tywo days (TOS) VS about 5 Light Years per day at TNG's scale at Warp 9 -- yep...TNG is soo much faster than TOS - oh, wait, you don't take on screen evidence when it conflicts with you view...
Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard
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All the other races seems to have a Military First, dabble in Science later on free time mentality.
Just look at the Ship designs of the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians.
Conjecture? lets see - 990.7 Light Years in tywo days (TOS) VS about 5 Light Years per day at TNG's scale at Warp 9 -- yep...TNG is soo much faster than TOS - oh, wait, you don't take on screen evidence when it conflicts with you view...
None of that matters, because it's inconsistent. It's still not a retcon. Use some logical sense. Do you really think the NCC-1701-A is thousands of times faster than the NCC-1701-D just because there was some shitty movie that showed the A getting to the center of the galaxy in an hour, where it would take the D a hundred years?
G
Gonzo
Guest
Starfleet does lean more towards science that the Romulans and Klingons but that isnt saying much really.
That is what ultimately drives development, its always a race.
If Starfleet didnt keep up they would be asking to be attacked, the best defense is to walk softly and carry a big gun.
Just look at some of the classes we have seen up to now.
Defiant = Military/Explore
Galaxy = Explore/Science/Military
Sovereign = Military/Explore/Science
Don't forget the development of the Defiant (among others) was a direct response to the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation/Starfleet was resting on its laurels too much and Q knew it, so he did them a huge solid and made them face the truth.
The wars that the Federation have fought in would directly influence Starship design for decades afterwards, what worked well, what didn't work at all etc etc, the Dominion war was a watershed as that war was waged on home turf against an opponent that could not be touched directly due to being in the Gamma quadrant, it is the first inter quadrant war they have faced and I would expect a big leap forward in ships (size especially) and weapons as a result for all the participants of the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
How different would the war with the Dominion have been if the battle of Wolf 359 had not happened and they had never met the Borg at all.
I will leave it there as its a touchy subject for some.
I agree with you whole heartedly.
If it wasn't for Q, the UFP would've been squashed like a bug, like that one Quantum Reality where Riker's Federation was destroyed by the Borg, in the ep "Parallels".
Needing to balance both the Military side and Scientific Explorer side in a 50% / 50% ratio and not trying to fool yourself that you're more of one side then the other is what a "Realistic" StarFleet should admit to and be proud of.
Science leads to better tech, better understanding of things. Exploration leeds to more knowledge and ever increasing scientific discoveries. Military leads to keeping the UFP safe from those who don't like the UFP and would do us harm.
Each side is critical IMO for survival and ever expanding knowledge.
Science leads to better tech, better understanding of things. Exploration leeds to more knowledge and ever increasing scientific discoveries. Military leads to keeping the UFP safe from those who don't like the UFP and would do us harm.
Each side is critical IMO for survival and ever expanding knowledge.
I'm not the one moving the goal posts here (and BTW - that's from TOS - S3 - "That Which Survives" -- not STV:TFF).
To the point: You first claimed Klingons in TNG "looked exactly like they did in the TOS feature films". I presented visual proof that this is NOT the case.
Your reply - "Well, he looked like the Klingons from STVI..."
ORLY?:
Michael Dorn as "Worf's ancestor" from STVI:
Michael Dorn as "Worf" from TNG:
Yeah, exactly the same...not...
And the original point under discussion was basically - When did Star Trek start retconning? Someone felt it really started with ENT because (somehow) TNG and 24th century Trek were 'consistent', and it's the later Trek Producers who "are lazy" and "don't care"...
The bottom line is: There's NEVER been really consistent Star Trek from day one. Everyone who works on it/in it has their own touches, changes.
TNG was a big a visual retcon to many TOS elements as the current STP series has been to TNG - althiough as a TOS fan yeah, I'd say Kurtzman and Co. have been overall more screen faithful to TNG than they have been to TOS; but Berman and Co. got just as "lazy" and often 'didn't care" about as much WRT TOS - and it really shows that they couldn't believe TOS was still as popular as it was and seen by man7y as the real 'gold standard' of the Trek franchise back in the day.
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Starfleet appears to be the sea, air, land, space combined arms service, along with the functions of NASA, NOAA, ESA, etc. I can see making a distinction between a civil space agency and the armed forces, but Starfleet appears to be both. The ships are armed, the combat we see is Starfleet in every series and war. The MACOs were added in ENT for whatever reason, but even there the ships are armed and there is no reference to a separate military fleet and there certainly never was later.
I do think it is worth playing up being the successor to NASA and the Space military simultaneously. There is some room for tension there.
I do think it is worth playing up being the successor to NASA and the Space military simultaneously. There is some room for tension there.
G
Gonzo
Guest
They dont need to acknowledge it or agree with it.
It has come about simply due to necessity which will always be the mother of invention.
Yes.
Your reply - "Well, he looked like the Klingons from STVI..."
ORLY?:
Michael Dorn as "Worf's ancestor" from STVI:
Michael Dorn as "Worf" from TNG:
Yeah, exactly the same...not...
Its almost as if they were trying to depict a familial lineage without simply pulling Mike Dorn from the set of TNG and putting him in a different costume.
Do they look exactly 100% the same? No, there's variation from klingon to klingon.
Is it clear that they are the same visual style and clearly the same species? Yes.
Anything else is pedantry.
Uh huh. And by what logic do you base this on?
I had the theory that Colonel Worf was the TNG Worf's maternal grandfather and that explains why the grandson doesn't share the grandfather's cranial ridge pattern. That cranial ridge patterns are usually passed down from the father.
I'm not the one moving the goal posts here (and BTW - that's from TOS - S3 - "That Which Survives" -- not STV:TFF).
To the point: You first claimed Klingons in TNG "looked exactly like they did in the TOS feature films". I presented visual proof that this is NOT the case.
Your reply - "Well, he looked like the Klingons from STVI..."
ORLY?:
Michael Dorn as "Worf's ancestor" from STVI:
Michael Dorn as "Worf" from TNG:
Yeah, exactly the same...not...
And the original point under discussion was basically - When did Star Trek start retconning? Someone felt it really started with ENT because (somehow) TNG and 24th century Trek were 'consistent', and it's the later Trek Producers who "are lazy" and "don't care"...
The bottom line is: There's NEVER been really consistent Star Trek from day one. Everyone who works on it/in it has their own touches, changes.
TNG was a big a visual retcon to many TOS elements as the current STP series has been to TNG - althiough as a TOS fan yeah, I'd say Kurtzman and Co. have been overall more screen faithful to TNG than they have been to TOS; but Berman and Co. got just as "lazy" and often 'didn't care" about as much WRT TOS - and it really shows that they couldn't believe TOS was still as popular as it was and seen by man7y as the real 'gold standard' of the Trek franchise back in the day.
First of all, I misspoke. I meant that the TNG Klingons looked like the last time we saw them right before TNG premiered, which was STIV, not STVI. My mistake.
Second, I still fail to see how TNG retconned TOS. If anything, the visual style of TNG was right in line with TOS, from the uniforms to the bussard ramscoops on the Ent-D’s engines.
Warp speed has been all over the place since the beginning. Using the Star Charts book, someone figured out that the NX-01 was actually faster than Voyager.
the uniforms didn't look like anything from the TOS movies though. If you judge the look of the Klingons by their movie appearance (which was itself vastly different than their TNG appearance) why do you judge the look of the uniforms by their TOS appearance?
No logic. Just fan interpretation
And I'm just giving crap at this point. I don't think its a problem at all.
But it originally started because the Romulans felt that the Earth Humans became the biggest threat.
Otherwise they would have taken on the Andorians and Vulcans much earlier.
It was the Romulans misfortune that Archer was able to bring all of the Races together just as the war was ramping up.
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There’s a reason why the TNG uniforms didn’t look like the TOS movie uniforms: Because Roddenberry was trying to distance TNG from those films. Specifically, he felt that the monster maroons were too military-looking, which was at odds with the utopian setting he wanted for the late 24th century.
And honestly, the TNG Klingons were not ‘vastly different from their movie appearance.’ They even used the exact same uniforms from the movies for them.
