Stargate: Universe is what Voyager should've been like

[Anwar]

But all civilizations wouldn't be like, some would want to trade, they would want technology instead of money.

Given how they kept running into civilizations that were as advanced if not more advanced than them, I don't see the "Give us tech" thing being all that likely.

It would have been more interesting if they really WERE the most advanced vessel in the DQ, and all the species encountered were at a significantly weaker level. Like a guy with body armor and a shotgun (who can make his own bullets) wandered around a Renaissance Era Kingdom.

To me that's part of the change the Voyager crew should have made, being more willing to bend the PD, because them conforming to rules that were not meant for the situation doesn't make sense.

Yes, but that doesn't mean there are not reasonable civilizations who would be willing to trade technologies, in a deal that benefits both sides. Why shouldn't Voyager do that?

Doing something like that would demand that they explore the consequences of such an act and affecting a society like that. An since VOY had to always be on the move, the audience would complain either way that they either didn't explore the consequences or they stayed at that one world too long. Screwed either way.

Voyager almost always lacked continuity and consequences, too often the script was written so Janeway was 100% right and that's just boring. She hardly ever had to make tough decisions and I don't count Caretaker because I thought she was being massively incompetent in that story.

That was Jeri Taylor's fault for making Janeway her personal Mary Sue character everyone liked and was always right.

And Caretaker wasn't anyone's fault: Kazon reinforcements were on their way, and would get there before they got the Array working. Going home wasn't an option, they were stuck no matter what.

The dumb thing was that the characters thought it was Janeway's fault when it WASN'T!

Also Voyager lacked any real feelings of progression. The fact that Harry Kim always reminded an Ensign

Like how Riker never got promoted to Captain until NEM, or Data never got promoted either?

Also their return home was out of the blue, it had no build up, there was no reason to care about their return when it was so lazily written. Stuff like that really hurt the show.

It was always just going to be some random contrivance like a wormhole that sent them home. What else was it supposed to be?

 

[JB2005]

^ How about a 6 episode arc that showed us like the 16 year journey in stages? Or hell even the entire 7th season devoted to it?

 

[lurok]

Also their return home was out of the blue, it had no build up, there was no reason to care about their return when it was so lazily written. Stuff like that really hurt the show.

It was always just going to be some random contrivance like a wormhole that sent them home. What else was it supposed to be?

From 'The Gift' on and then through last seasons there were certainly enough plotbombs that built up return home. But contrivance/deus ex machina was probably inevitable for ending. I could hardly imagine them just turning up in Sector 001

 

[Anwar]

Hey, if it was random contrivance that sent them to the DQ in the first place...

 

[Satyrquaze]

Seriously. Very dark, very hopeless, very OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE BECAUSE THE SHIP IS FRAKKED!!!

I have to agree with you whole heartedly.

 

[Anwar]

What, like how in DS9 despite there being a war going on only one of the main characters died? If anything, THAT'S the show that should've killed off the entire cast every 2 seasons...

 

[Satyrquaze]

What, like how in DS9 despite there being a war going on only one of the main characters died? If anything, THAT'S the show that should've killed off the entire cast every 2 seasons...

By that logic, Voyager should have stayed lost.

 

[Anwar]

Why? When the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard they always made it back. DS9 went to all the trouble of setting up a big war story that was on for like 5 seasons and never killed anyone aside from Dax and that wasn't even a war casualty! If they can do that and everyone except Dax gets out alive, I don't see why VOY has to kill everyone.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I didn't say 'kill everyone' I just said "lost" like dozens of other ships in starfleet, at least one of them named Enterprise.

How many of the regular cast of SG-1 stayed dead during the war with the Goauld?

 

[Anwar]

SG-1 wasn't about an all-out war, and when they did have it most of the time it was the other aliens doing the fighting.

But if you want to be that way, it still supports my point: Wanting folks to die on VOY when their situation wasn't as bad as other shows who didn't kill off THEIR characters just shows unfair bias.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Die/kill are your words. Not mine.

 

[Anwar]

Seriously. Very dark, very hopeless, very OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE BECAUSE THE SHIP IS FRAKKED!!!

I have to agree with you whole heartedly.

You didn't say it yourself, but you agree with it.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Re: Stargate: Universe is what Voyager should've been like

What, you mean like cancelled? Yeah I thought that as well

 

[antiquityscion]

Having rewatched the entire series a couple of months back, I have to say I liked it more than the first time I saw it.

Even the early seasons were quite good, even if the Kazon were weak as aliens.

I like the Kazon. I think they were good villains.

Some of the best episodes were those when Culluh and Seska were involved.

+1

I like Voyager. A Lot. That said, IMHO, Voyager would have been even better if it had more arcs like DS9. To be fair,though, if you re-watch Voyager all the way through, it does have arcs, so it isn't a fair thing to say it didn't have ANY arcs. I am just saying I wish so many of the Voyager episodes weren't so self contained.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Seriously. Very dark, very hopeless, very OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE BECAUSE THE SHIP IS FRAKKED!!!

I have to agree with you whole heartedly.

You didn't say it yourself, but you agree with it.

Actually, what I was agreeing with there was that it should have been more like SGU (as the title of the thread says) particularlly since that was the show I promised when Voyager was pitched.

I was just saying in my original post that based on your logic that more people main characters should have died in DS9 (I presume for realism) then for realism sake Voyager should not have made it back from the Delta Quadrant.

I never called for the deaths of any characters.

 

[Anwar]

Kirk and Picard got their ships back from further out when it happened to them. No reason it should be harder for Janeway, .

If you're going to bother spending 5-7ths of a show dedicate to hostilities and finally war against the series' foe (which DS9 did, but none of the other shows did) then you should at least have the courage to kill off your cast the way a war story usually does. If anything, DS9 didn't deliver either.

 

[Satyrquaze]

1. I don't recall Kirk going further than 70,000lys.

2. Going to the Delta Quadrant is a little different than going to a galaxy where the positive thoughts of your wunderkin ensign and the rest the crew can get you home.

3. I guess you're right, you can't ask for one without expecting the other. Although, VOY never really killed off anyone given all their encounters with the Borg, 8472, the Kazon, etc...

 

[Anwar]

1) Kirk went beyond the edge of the Galaxy in TOS' pilot episode.

2) Yeah, it's easier to adapt to the Delta Quadrant than to such a crazy place. They also got shot a few thousand Light Years by Q in "Q Who?".

3) TNG didn't lose anyone in any of their Borg encounters either....

 

[The Overlord]

But all civilizations wouldn't be like, some would want to trade, they would want technology instead of money.

Given how they kept running into civilizations that were as advanced if not more advanced than them, I don't see the "Give us tech" thing being all that likely.

It would have been more interesting if they really WERE the most advanced vessel in the DQ, and all the species encountered were at a significantly weaker level. Like a guy with body armor and a shotgun (who can make his own bullets) wandered around a Renaissance Era Kingdom.

1. There is no way there aren't any civilizations out there with tech is exactly equal to Voyager, its far more realistic that some civilizations would have tech Voyager doesn't have and Voyager has tech they don't have. That's why Romulans and Federation try and spy on each other. So them trading tech now and again makes sense, shows they have to do things differently because they are in the unknown.

2. And who would be a threat to Voyager in the situation you described?

Yes, but that doesn't mean there are not reasonable civilizations who would be willing to trade technologies, in a deal that benefits both sides. Why shouldn't Voyager do that?

Doing something like that would demand that they explore the consequences of such an act and affecting a society like that. An since VOY had to always be on the move, the audience would complain either way that they either didn't explore the consequences or they stayed at that one world too long. Screwed either way.[/quote]

And who's fault is that? The creators of the show for making a premise that was this flawed. Voyager was always on the move, so you can't develop any of the alien civilizations to any degree, any sort of tension between the Maquis and Star Fleet was dropped right away and any sort of tension with Voyager being far from the federation being undermined by having silly Holodeck episodes when they were supposed not be low on power and resources. After all that, there isn't much left.

That was Jeri Taylor's fault for making Janeway her personal Mary Sue character everyone liked and was always right.

Well there is a problem with the show.

And Caretaker wasn't anyone's fault: Kazon reinforcements were on their way, and would get there before they got the Array working. Going home wasn't an option, they were stuck no matter what.

The dumb thing was that the characters thought it was Janeway's fault when it WASN'T!

What, they don't have bombs with timers in the future or someone can't stay behind to set off some bombs instead of stranding the whole crew, why can't Janeway did that instead of stranding of the crew. Why didn't the PD apply to the Ocampa in this situation? According the PD, Voyager shouldn't have helped the Ocampa.

Also the Kazon are morons, them figuring out the Array is as likely as a cave man figuring out NASA's computer system.

Also Voyager lacked any real feelings of progression. The fact that Harry Kim always reminded an Ensign

Like how Riker never got promoted to Captain until NEM, or Data never got promoted either?

Laforge got promoted twice, Troi got promoted, Worf did, Dr. Crusher did, etc. The fact is none of those people started an Ensign and stayed an Ensign, Harry getting a promotion is far more of potential character moment for him then it would have being for Troi or Dr. Crusher. It is why he is a dull character. He's a simpering man child because he got a chance to grow.

It was aways just going to be some random contrivance like a wormhole that sent them home. What else was it supposed to be?

How about a build up till to their return home, some quest they have to do, a quest that lasts the last 6 episodes or some test from Q or something. Something better random BS that gets them home with no build up. Caretaker sucked because it was some random BS contrivance that got them in the DQ, so saying that got them there in the first place just reminds the problems with the premise of the show.

 

[Anwar]

1. There is no way there aren't any civilizations out there with tech is exactly equal to Voyager, its far more realistic that some civilizations would have tech Voyager doesn't have and Voyager has tech they don't have. That's why Romulans and Federation try and spy on each other. So them trading tech now and again makes sense, shows they have to do things differently because they are in the unknown.

It would've been more interesting if the Delta aliens still used Capitalist systems and VOY had to work for money/repairs most of the time. Or we see how they'd use the Replicators to do so without messing up the local economy, etc. Having them go around handing out tech willy-nilly would just make them seem incompetent when there are many other story options to explore. Maybe occasionally they could trade tech, but not all the time.

2. And who would be a threat to Voyager in the situation you described?

Someone smart enough to lay a multiple vessel trap, or sneak onboard and sabotage them, or capture crew on a planet's surface. Etc, etc, etc....

And who's fault is that? The creators of the show for making a premise that was this flawed. Voyager was always on the move, so you can't develop any of the alien civilizations to any degree, any sort of tension between the Maquis and Star Fleet was dropped right away and any sort of tension with Voyager being far from the federation being undermined by having silly Holodeck episodes when they were supposed not be low on power and resources. After all that, there isn't much left.

I agree, it was a bad idea that they would always be on the move (they should've been totally lost for a while, to justify exploring and visiting the same place more than once). The Maquis were a poor choice regardless (it should have been Romulans), and while I don't mind the holodeck they should've only done those stories in periods where the ship was running fine and not in need of repairs.

What, they don't have bombs with timers in the future or someone can't stay behind to set off some bombs instead of stranding the whole crew, why can't Janeway did that instead of stranding of the crew. Why didn't the PD apply to the Ocampa in this situation? According the PD, Voyager shouldn't have helped the Ocampa.

It wasn't a matter of setting a bomb, it was that they'd never have the time to get the Array working before the Kazon got there with reinforcements. Going home wasn't an option. What never made sense was home the crew blamed her in the first place! THAT was the bad writing.

What Janeway did was pretty much the same as what Kirk did whenever he messed up some flawed society controlled by something else ("The Apple", "Return of the Archons". It just never cost him anything to do it).

It is why he is a dull character. He's a simpering man child because he got a chance to grow.

That was mainly Garret Wang's fault for never taking the character seriously to begin with, even when they DID try to develop him. And he wasn't a great actor in the first place.

How about a build up till to their return home, some quest they have to do, a quest that lasts the last 6 episodes or some test from Q or something. Something better random BS that gets them home with no build up. Caretaker sucked because it was some random BS contrivance that got them in the DQ, so saying that got them there in the first place just reminds the problems with the premise of the show.

Well, it was no more a BS contrivance than Q popping up in "Encounter at Farpoint" or the discovery of the Prophets in "Emissary". I think they should've just had the Female Caretaker pop up and send them home.