Starfleet: What is it?

[Man of Steel]

^ You almost sound surprised by this turn of events... on this board?

Actually I'm surprised it happened pretty quickly.

 

[Steve Roby]

^ You almost sound surprised by this turn of events... on this board?

Actually I'm surprised it happened pretty quickly.

Why? It hasn't been all that long since the last big debate about it, and no consensus was reached then. Were you expecting something different?

 

[TheAlmanac]

The last time this issue came up, I pointed out that the Earth Starfleet of Enterprise is both explicitly described as not-the-military and has a system of courts-martial, so that series was definitely going for the "have it both ways" approach.

Now, that does bring up the apparent contradiction. But there's a nice solution that immediately comes to mind:

We never heard reference to courts-martial in the United Earth Starfleet (UESF) until after "The Expanse," when the MACOs were added to the UESF command structure and the UESF became the principle organ of national defense against the Xindi.

Sorry, but one of the references was in "First Flight," which was not only before "The Expanse," but related to Archer's avoidance of a court-martial several years before the series itself.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ You almost sound surprised by this turn of events... on this board?

Actually I'm surprised it happened pretty quickly.

You asked if Starfleet was A, B, or C, and then asked "Why?"

What did you think was going to happen?

 

[Sci]

The last time this issue came up, I pointed out that the Earth Starfleet of Enterprise is both explicitly described as not-the-military and has a system of courts-martial, so that series was definitely going for the "have it both ways" approach.

Now, that does bring up the apparent contradiction. But there's a nice solution that immediately comes to mind:

We never heard reference to courts-martial in the United Earth Starfleet (UESF) until after "The Expanse," when the MACOs were added to the UESF command structure and the UESF became the principle organ of national defense against the Xindi.

Sorry, but one of the references was in "First Flight," which was not only before "The Expanse," but related to Archer's avoidance of a court-martial several years before the series itself.

Touche!

I'm inclined to write it all off as the writers not having the slightest clue what a "military" actually is, then, and ignoring the "Starfleet is not a military" line.

 

[Man of Steel]

^ You almost sound surprised by this turn of events... on this board?

^ You almost sound surprised by this turn of events... on this board?

Actually I'm surprised it happened pretty quickly.

You asked if Starfleet was A, B, or C, and then asked "Why?"

What did you think was going to happen?

Well, the why was out of curiosity with a hope of a quick explanation

 

[Christopher]

It's pretty clear that the Earth Starfleet was not an actual military, because NX-01 wasn't equipped for combat and its crewmembers talked about the military (in the form of MACO personnel) as something separate from Starfleet. The preponderance of evidence is that Earth Starfleet was non-military; its use of the term "court-martial" is the singular exception. It would make more sense to dismiss that as the anomaly than to dismiss all the other evidence in favor of a single inconsistency.

Perhaps "court-martial" was being used in a figurative sense by the speakers. Or perhaps its meaning changes over the next 140-odd years.

 

[Sci]

It's pretty clear that the Earth Starfleet was not an actual military, because NX-01 wasn't equipped for combat and its crewmembers talked about the military (in the form of MACO personnel) as something separate from Starfleet. The preponderance of evidence is that Earth Starfleet was non-military; its use of the term "court-martial" is the singular exception. It would make more sense to dismiss that as the anomaly than to dismiss all the other evidence in favor of a single inconsistency.

Perhaps "court-martial" was being used in a figurative sense by the speakers. Or perhaps its meaning changes over the next 140-odd years.

Seems to me that we either need to ignore the reference to courts-martial or the reference to the UESF not being a military. I don't think the two are compatible.

 

[captcalhoun]

they had uniforms, ranks and a chain of command. they have courts martial. they're military, even if the ships aren't armed.

 

[BillJ]

It's pretty clear that the Earth Starfleet was not an actual military, because NX-01 wasn't equipped for combat and its crewmembers talked about the military (in the form of MACO personnel) as something separate from Starfleet. The preponderance of evidence is that Earth Starfleet was non-military; its use of the term "court-martial" is the singular exception. It would make more sense to dismiss that as the anomaly than to dismiss all the other evidence in favor of a single inconsistency.

Perhaps "court-martial" was being used in a figurative sense by the speakers. Or perhaps its meaning changes over the next 140-odd years.

Doesn't make any sense. The only reason the NX-01 didn't have weapons was because they hadn't been installed in Broken Bow (due to the early launch). We saw both phase cannons and torpedoes shortly after the premiere in Fight or Flight and Silent Enemy. Plus we saw the 'new' phase pistols in Broken Bow. Starfleet is the military, even the United Earth version.

 

[David Brennon]

So we ignore canon when it suits the argument? It is said they're [UESF] not military plain and simple. Perhaps Christopher is right and the meaning of the word changed over time.

 

[Christopher]

Seems to me that we either need to ignore the reference to courts-martial or the reference to the UESF not being a military. I don't think the two are compatible.

But there are multiple, explicit references in onscreen dialogue to Earth Starfleet not being a military. It's more logical to disregard a single anomalous detail than it is to throw out everything else consistently stated throughout the series in favor of a single anomalous detail.

I can certainly understand how a nonmilitary body with aspects of military organization could adopt military terminology like "court-martial," because words routinely get co-opted to mean things that aren't strictly accurate (cf: any fandom discussion containing the word "canon" or "remastered"). I cannot understand how an overtly military body could have its members explicitly state that they are not military. From "The Expanse":

FORREST: You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel.

And from "Home":

ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.

Also, if Earth Starfleet were the military, then they wouldn't have needed to bring new, special forces onboard for a combat mission.

It's quite clear that, while Earth Starfleet used certain military terms and organizational tenets, it was not the body charged with responsibility for the defense of the planet Earth, not prior to the Xindi invasion, at least. It was an exploratory service that needed to work in harmony with the actual military, the MACOs, when a war loomed. Presumably it was during the Earth-Romulan War that the relationship between Starfleet and the military strengthened until they formally became one and the same thing.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

So UESF was more like the NOAA armed against pirates until the Xindi attack and the UESF was turned into a full military. Or the UESF is a militia. My question is what entity what organization was charged with the defense of Earth? i am talking about the Interpid and those delta-shaped vessels responding to the Enterprise and the Klingon attack.

Would they be MACO vessels? If they were, then the Enterprise could have been built by the MACOs and the vessel was on loan, as in the case of Royal Navy vessels on loan to various scientific expeditions during the 19th century like the HMS Erebus and the HMS Beagle.

Yes, UFP Starfleet was a military for the basic fact that the organization was the primary defense of the UFP as shown many times.

 

[Christopher]

The MACOs were more like the Marines, I think. There would've probably been some other military branch serving as Earth's space navy.

What I wish ENT had done instead would've been to have NX-01 in the service of UESPA, the civilian exploration department, with Starfleet being the space navy. I think that would've made more sense, since "United Earth Space Probe Agency" is a much less military-sounding name than "Starfleet."

(There was a bit of signage in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" that said "Starfleet Command/United Earth Space Probe Agency," implying that one was a division of the other or that they were the same thing. But that was kind of a cursory attempt to reconcile things after the fact and it's not quite what I would've preferred to see.)

 

[captcalhoun]

^it was a logo on a carpet.

 

[Timo]

I cannot understand how an overtly military body could have its members explicitly state that they are not military. From "The Expanse": [..] And from "Home":

Perhaps we could say that the word "Military" at that time had a narrower meaning.

After all, the MACOs didn't bring military expertise to the ship. Archer already had that aplenty. His security team was as heavily armed as the MACO posse, his ship a powerful combatant. His colleagues seemed to be veterans of flying starships that had no other capabilities besides combat.

But "military" meant "land army" exclusively until late in the 19th century, and some writers keep using it in that sense even today. The two bits (!) of dialogue in ENT where "the military" is mentioned could easily be read as interservice rivalry, with "military vs. Starfleet" being analogous to "Army vs. Navy".

The analogy is all the easier to accept when one notes that there seem to be two Commands with an Earth-defending role there: Starfleet Command and this Military Assault Command. Two parallel organizations, probably on the same organizational level, both tasked with the same job, only different angles of it: an instant formula for rivalry.

There was a bit of signage in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" that said "Starfleet Command/United Earth Space Probe Agency," implying that one was a division of the other or that they were the same thing.

Or that the two operated jointly.

In "heraldic analysis", the name UESPA is on bottom, Starfleet Command on top. We have also seen symbols where Starfleet Command is on top and UFP is on bottom. Systematically speaking, then, SF Command should be subservient to UESPA, if the two symbols share the same heraldic rules. But a parallel, equal setup sounds likelier.

UESPA could well be a civilian organization unrelated to the various military Commands out there, but an important partner of the new 2150s Starfleet which for the first time wants to explore in addition to protect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Seems to me that we either need to ignore the reference to courts-martial or the reference to the UESF not being a military. I don't think the two are compatible.

But there are multiple, explicit references in onscreen dialogue to Earth Starfleet not being a military. It's more logical to disregard a single anomalous detail than it is to throw out everything else consistently stated throughout the series in favor of a single anomalous detail.

1. Re-read what I said and you'll note that I said we should disregard one or the other, not that we should disregard the lines about the UESF not being a military. You're arguing against something I didn't say.

2. You've cited two lines of dialogue indicating that the UESF isn't a military. But, from what I can tell, there are only two instances where UESF courts-martial were mentioned. So I don't think that the "UESF isn't a military because they say so" side has more evidence than the "UESF is a military because it has courts-martial" side. As I said above, one or the other must be disregarded.

Or creatively re-interpreted, as you suggest. Perhaps UESF courts-martial are not legally courts-martial -- the UESF can't imprison members who, for instance, go AWOL the way a military can, but they use many of the practices of legal courts-martial to determine whether or not to throw someone out of UESF?

ETA:

As for UESPA vs. UESF, I always interpreted the emblem seen in "Demons" to indicate that the UESF is a division of UESPA, and that UESPA is the independent agency of the United Earth government responsible for regulating all space-borne activity. I figure the United Earth Starfleet is a division of UESPA, and that, if the Earth Cargo Authority is a government agency rather than a private corporation, ECA also falls under UESPA's jurisdiction. I also figure that UESPA is headed by a Cabinet member who works under the Prime Minister -- United Earth Minister for Space or some such.

 

[Sci]

So we ignore canon when it suits the argument?

Canon gets ignored all the time. "The Alternate Factor"'s claim that if matter and anti-matter ever came into contact, they would annihilate the universe has been ignored every episode since. "Threshold"'s claim that transwarp would turn Humans into giant newts was ignored numerous times after that episode. Wesley's line in "Samaritan Snare" establishing that the Klingon Empire had joined the Federation was ignored in subsequent seasons. Data's claim that no one had ever seen the Romulans between 2311 and "The Neutral Zone" was ignored when it was revealed that Romulans attacked Khitomer and that the Enterprise-C had sacrificed itself defeating the Romulans. Etc.

 

[DimesDan]

So we ignore canon when it suits the argument?

Canon gets ignored all the time. "The Alternate Factor"'s claim that if matter and anti-matter ever came into contact, they would annihilate the universe has been ignored every episode since. "Threshold"'s claim that transwarp would turn Humans into giant newts was ignored numerous times after that episode. Wesley's line in "Samaritan Snare" establishing that the Klingon Empire had joined the Federation was ignored in subsequent seasons. Data's claim that no one had ever seen the Romulans between 2311 and "The Neutral Zone" was ignored when it was revealed that Romulans attacked Khitomer and that the Enterprise-C had sacrificed itself defeating the Romulans. Etc.

You know, a simple yes would do for that answer.

 

[Sci]

So we ignore canon when it suits the argument?

Canon gets ignored all the time. "The Alternate Factor"'s claim that if matter and anti-matter ever came into contact, they would annihilate the universe has been ignored every episode since. "Threshold"'s claim that transwarp would turn Humans into giant newts was ignored numerous times after that episode. Wesley's line in "Samaritan Snare" establishing that the Klingon Empire had joined the Federation was ignored in subsequent seasons. Data's claim that no one had ever seen the Romulans between 2311 and "The Neutral Zone" was ignored when it was revealed that Romulans attacked Khitomer and that the Enterprise-C had sacrificed itself defeating the Romulans. Etc.

You know, a simple yes would do for that answer.

But it would have been misleading. It's not, "We ignore canon when it suits the argument," it's, "We ignore one aspect of the canon when it contradicts another aspect."