It's really very simple. If you believe Section 31 is an official part of the Federation, you also believe that all of the Federation is as evil as Section 31 obviously is. Whose side are you on?
Starfleet - war criminals? (Sisko and Starfleet Command)
- Thread starter Baxten
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It's really very simple. If you believe Section 31 is an official part of the Federation, you also believe that all of the Federation is as evil as Section 31 obviously is. Whose side are you on?
Broken record time: Picard wouldn't be allowed to stop a genocide, Roddenbery wouldn't allow a genocide story to be told.
How optimistic!
You want moral nuance okay it's not that simple.
The Federation citizenry and the true believers are good-Bashir, Picard, Janeway(on her best days). They believe in the whole root beer can't we all get along and we need to reach out to our enemies and love and all that.
The admiralty and S31 aren't so good and virtuous. At heart their cynical and don't really believe the federation can endure by example and moral superiority alone. More than likely such sentiments aren't known in the wider public and most of Starfleet doesn't seem to grasp that its leadership doesn't share their aspirations and hopes for the future.
Well that's the problem I pointed out above. You seem to feel that describing S31's position in the Federation, based on canon, means advocating their mission.
You can't just dismiss what we've been shown because you don't like it, and then go on to call people "pro s31ers" for simply describing this fictional entity.
I don't like that they introduced S31 period. I don't like some of the things Sisko did that were contrary to Federation principles, but it doesn't mean he didn't do them. I just wish the writers of DS9 didn't have to keep bringing these real world elements into this idealized world.
Section 31 is protected by Starfleet Command. That means, that at the upper levels of SF command, those who have the clearance, know. S31 works for Starfleet. Sloan says so. He also says they are another, separate branch of Starfleet intelligence. He says they are an autonomous department. They don't have to send in reports. I'm guessing they choose their own missions, but are also a valuable asset to Starfleet in a crisis. Sloan says the deal with the big problems that threaten the very existence of the Federation.
Wait, it's not a case of all black, or all white. The Federation doesn't have to be completely evil for S31 to have a place within it.
There are probably relatively few people in the Federation population who fully understand S31 and the part that it plays in the overall protection of the Federation.
Well, many would argue that in the time of war, the laws fall silent.
But, given the limited knowledge that the general citizenry has of S31, and the rather distasteful reaction by leaders such as Ross, and others, there seems to be a general reluctance to admit to S31's existence, save under great need.
I would agree that it isn't officially sanctioned but it falls in a very gray area.
Actually, Michael Piller was one of the first to chaff against the Roddenberry box on TNG.
Nope. Just had the Prime Directive and Picard giving Riker an "ata-boy" for not using his Q powers to save a little girl.
Don't forget that he ordered Crusher to violate the Ornarans patients' rights.
Or the willingness to leave a civilization to die since its cloning tech was failing.
Admiral Ross knows about Section 31 and is willing to work with them to some degree. It doesn't follow that all of Starfleet Command knows about them. Possibly only a few, just enough to get them a budget and deflect attention from them. Okay, Sloan implied that most of Starfleet Command knew, but he's not the world's most reliable narrator.
Sisko seems less inclined to work with them and more trying to take them down from the inside.
There is a regular Starfleet intelligence agency that presumably is subject to heavier oversight.
Like any society, you likely need both types to survive. Starfleet has to be pragmatic, it can't afford to be anything else. Trillions of lives are at stake.
One thing that I always thought about Section 31 is that it had contingency plans in place. It isn't centralized like Starfleet is organized, and if one cell is lost, then others are going to continue.
Even if Sisko exposed, say, Sloan and Ross, there would be other agents who would continued on.
At least, that's the impression I got.
Indeed what if all of Trek is a matrix Q set up to test Picard's wisdom and humility?
That makes "All Good Things" even more interesting. Picard opts to return to the system, rather than reset it.
I loved the show too for those very reasons. TNG got way too idealistic and elitist for my tastes. The prime directive became the ultimate excuse for allowing allies to fall and even civilizations to perish. As Sisko said in season 2 "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
It's one thing to be idealistic and stand on a soap box and say,"in a perfect world you should do this or that." It's another thing to throw a war in the mix with you being on the losing side and having to choose between idealism and death. The classic case of theory vs. reality. No human being in their right mind would choose idealism and losing a war over winning and saving lives. Sisko was completely justified in doing what was needed to save everyone.
Sacrificing one's principles to save one's life is to lower oneself and life to barbarism and un-civilization.
If you can't defend your self and people without indulging in the same barbarism or worse as your enemies then you have forfeited claims to sainthood and civilization.
If you can't defend your self and people without indulging in the same barbarism or worse as your enemies then you have forfeited claims to sainthood and civilization.
