Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[wakachukie]

My very much oversimplified explanation as to why the klingons win is, of course, simple.
/Decloak & either beam warriors into bridge or torpedoes into main engineering
onscreen evidence? every time they raise shields AFTER they see the enemy.
Granted, the Fed has cloak detection sensors - but those are only activated when a cloaked vessel is suspected.

 

[T'Girl]

Whilst Picard and co. pasted Klingons in Archer IV, the Klingons could have ...

Oh, the Klingons could have done a lot of things.

Problem is the episode never showed any of the things the Klingons might have done.

 

[Paradon]

Says who? We've never known the complete size of Starfleet, whether in ship numbers or personnel.

They overran Betazed and Vulcan, and Worf suggested that they shoud go deep into Dominion territory to destroy their shipyards to cripple their ability to wage war.

They didn't take Vulcan

Ok, you're right...but they did take Betazed...

 

[wakachukie]

This whole thread makes me wonder: Why couldn't the Jem Hadar and Klingons get along better? >.> then we KNOW who would've won.

And I maintain that Klingons would win when using Romulan tactics.

 

[Morpheus 02]

My short answer of who would win in Fed vs. Klingons...of course, the Romulans! It wouldn't matter who "won", they'd both be weak enough to be conquered by someone else.

I'd say the Klingons, assuming this was a sustained war.

For the Klingons, being in a constant state of war would give many purpose, focus and heart -- ithelps the Klingons live up to their culture.

For the Feds...over time, this war would be like Iraq (or even Afghanistan) for the US. Maybe at the beginning, people we excited/supportive. But that support would erode over time, and the inner planets might say "just give them some territory" as wwas done with the Cardassians. Then Starfleet officers, unlike their Klingon counterparts, will here all sorts fo complaining that demoralizes them,a nd makes them worse fighters.

Now, if this were the plot for the next Trek movie, then of course the Feds would win in the end...

 

[T'Girl]

But that support would erode over time

I wonder what effect the war would have on the Federation's membership?

I could see a rush of new civilizations wishing to join, to get under the protection of Starfleet. But alternately there's the possibility that new memberships might come to a halt, with people not wanting their planets to be associated with the Klingons enemies.

The Federation might even see the number of it's established members dropping, as different civilizations no longer believe being a part of the Federation to be to their advantage.

Moving to obtaining association with a different interstellar union, or declare themselves a independent republic.

 

[Rojixus]

But that support would erode over time

I wonder what effect the war would have on the Federation's membership?

I could see a rush of new civilizations wishing to join, to get under the protection of Starfleet. But alternately there's the possibility that new memberships might come to a halt, with people not wanting their planets to be associated with the Klingons enemies.

The Federation might even see the number of it's established members dropping, as different civilizations no longer believe being a part of the Federation to be to their advantage.

Moving to obtaining association with a different interstellar union, or declare themselves a independent republic.

That's what I was saying earlier. In a sustained war with the Klingons, it is doubtful the Federation would see an uptick in new members. In fact, some members may secede and try to establish a separate peace with the Klingons. With the loss of so many members and resources, the Federation would have little choice but to surrender after a while.

 

[wakachukie]

Well, if the TOS era war with Klingons is any indicator, it would come down to a stalemate very quickly with Lots of small ship encounters as each side tries to take strategic planets as quickly as possible. Any "big" move would quickly gain the attention of the opposing nations and a battlegroup would be sent in with the associated home-field advantage to whichever planets the target area in question is closer to. Otherwise I would tend to agree with Morpheus's analysis with the caveat that as soon as the Romulans stepped in there is a chance the Feds would team up with Klingons (Feds are negotiators after all and Klingons would find no problem with killing Romulans) ref. TNG

 

[cwl]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

Most Dominion ships where the "small" Jem'Hadar fighters. They could probably churn them out rapidly but they'd need 3-4/1 odds on most Fed ships to have a good chance of victory.

Some thing like a Defiant class could take out 3-4 of them quite easily most times, I could forsee something like a Prometheus class being capable of twice that number.

By the end of DS9 the USS Defiant ploughed through Dominion Bug ships like they weren't even there.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

"It's the industrial capacity, stupid"

In any kind of war that lasts more than a year, the UFP should win, simply because from everything I've seen their industrial base is far superior to the Klingons. They can build more ships faster, more ordnance, more weapons of all kinds - ship to ship and ground forces. More space stations, more powerful or at least more numerous detection arrays...

The Klingon's industry is still probably suffering from the legacy of Praxis, even most of a century after the fact.

 

[cwl]

"It's the industrial capacity, stupid"

In any kind of war that lasts more than a year, the UFP should win, simply because from everything I've seen their industrial base is far superior to the Klingons. They can build more ships faster, more ordnance, more weapons of all kinds - ship to ship and ground forces. More space stations, more powerful or at least more numerous detection arrays...

The Klingon's industry is still probably suffering from the legacy of Praxis, even most of a century after the fact.

if the UFP had such superior industrial capacity then they should have wiped the floor with the Klingons in the alternative timeline.

it was a protracted, drawn out war. the precise type of war where superior industrial capacity should have been key. yet by all accounts the War was going heavily in favour of the Klingons, the UFP was nearing defeat.

the battle of Archer IV is an interesting one as it is relatively close to the Sol system. while we know that the Klingons were beaten by the UFP at Archer IV it could have been a small scout force or a diversionary raid. Not some final victory for the UFP as some are trying to portray.

 

[Morpheus 02]

But that support would erode over time

I wonder what effect the war would have on the Federation's membership?

I could see a rush of new civilizations wishing to join, to get under the protection of Starfleet. But alternately there's the possibility that new memberships might come to a halt, with people not wanting their planets to be associated with the Klingons enemies.

The Federation might even see the number of it's established members dropping, as different civilizations no longer believe being a part of the Federation to be to their advantage.

Moving to obtaining association with a different interstellar union, or declare themselves a independent republic.

That's what I was saying earlier. In a sustained war with the Klingons, it is doubtful the Federation would see an uptick in new members. In fact, some members may secede and try to establish a separate peace with the Klingons. With the loss of so many members and resources, the Federation would have little choice but to surrender after a while.

What i had in mind was with the Cardassians & the border colonies...The "safe" colonies might not care that much that people were being driven from their homes. hat resuled in the Maquis, who were a third faction in the Cardassian-Fed conflict, and certainly drew away resources from the Fed.

 

[cwl]

to re-cover the Archer IV point Riker could have been referring just to a small engagement between the Ent-D and a couple of BoPs.

 

[T'Girl]

to re-cover the Archer IV point Riker could have been referring just to a small engagement between the Ent-D and a couple of BoPs.

Wining a small engagement wouldn't really qualify as a "pasting" though would it? A pasting would be something big like the Battle of Midway. With the Klingons as the Japanese, and Starfleet as the Americans.

With the loss of so many members and resources, the Federation would have little choice but to surrender after a while.

Not necessarily, during the first world war, Russia changed governments and dropped out of the anti-German alliance, the alliance still won.

 

[Rojixus]

Wining a small engagement wouldn't really qualify as a "pasting" though would it? A pasting would be something big like the Battle of Midway. With the Klingons as the Japanese, and Starfleet as the Americans.

Riker could have been exaggerating. For all we know, Archer IV could have been a Federation Pyrrhic victory that crippled the fleet beyond all repair.

Not necessarily, during the first world war, Russia changed governments and dropped out of the anti-German alliance, the alliance still won.

The only thing the Russians contributed to the Allies in WWI was casualties and piss-poor performance in general. Not an accurate comparison.

 

[cwl]

A pasting doesn't refer to the size of an engagement. If you rewatch Yesterday's Enterprise again, the Ent-D and Ent-C are detected by 3 klingon k'vort battlecruisers.

rather than masking their approach by cloaking, the Klingons confidently move in whilst de-cloaked. the Ent-D picks them up on sensors. that's when Riker remarks about them being too confident because We gave them a pasting at Archer IV etc. I don't have the exact quote but it was words to those effect.

The Ent-D could well have ran into klingon ships at Archer IV and defeated them thus giving them a pasting. It need not have been some massive victory for the Federation.

 

[Saito S]

Wining a small engagement wouldn't really qualify as a "pasting" though would it? A pasting would be something big like the Battle of Midway. With the Klingons as the Japanese, and Starfleet as the Americans.

Riker could have been exaggerating. For all we know, Archer IV could have been a Federation Pyrrhic victory that crippled the fleet beyond all repair.

Aren't you doing here what you have been saying (earlier in the thread) others aught NOT do? "For all we know"; "maybe the Klingons gained some edge we weren't told about"; "maybe the UFP was in some dire straits going into the war we weren't told about"; etc. All such suppositions were responded to by yourself with the notion that none of that matters, because it's all just speculation. The direct implication from what is on screen is that the Feds were losing the war. Similarly, I think it's quite obvious that Riker's line is CLEARLY meant to indicate that Archer IV was an engagement that went heavily in Starfleet's favor. If the default position is to take Picard at his word, and not assume that he is exaggerating or lying without a reason (and I agree with you that it IS the default position), it is also the defaul position to assume that Riker was correctly recounting a recent event that went quite well for Starfleet (one that, in all likelihood, the Ent-D was present for). Of course, that one victory wouldn't upset the overall balance of the war.

All of that said... I DO agree that the clear implications of YE are that the UFP was losing that war, and rather badly. Sure, in theory, Picard COULD have been lying, or exaggerating, or what have you. But that's all fan speculation. Which is fine; there's nothing wrong with speculation, that's partly why we're even here on this BBS, but it is just that. There is no reason to think that the creators of the show had any of these things in mind when they wrote the episode. "Yesterday's Enterprise" is about an alternate reality in which the UFP was fighting, and badly losing, a long war against the Klingons.

All of THAT said... I don't like it. I don't deny that YE is about what it is about, but I feel it contradicts the rest of the filmed canon. If you were to remove YE, I think the evidence favors a Federation victory, so my problem with YE is that it contradicts everything else. I think there could be specific reasons for why the war went so badly for the Feds, and that's an interesting topic to ponder, but it would still be just speculation (and again, nothing wrong with that, it's fun.)

 

[Rojixus]

Wining a small engagement wouldn't really qualify as a "pasting" though would it? A pasting would be something big like the Battle of Midway. With the Klingons as the Japanese, and Starfleet as the Americans.

Riker could have been exaggerating. For all we know, Archer IV could have been a Federation Pyrrhic victory that crippled the fleet beyond all repair.

Aren't you doing here what you have been saying (earlier in the thread) others aught NOT do? "For all we know"; "maybe the Klingons gained some edge we weren't told about"; "maybe the UFP was in some dire straits going into the war we weren't told about"; etc. All such suppositions were responded to by yourself with the notion that none of that matters, because it's all just speculation. The direct implication from what is on screen is that the Feds were losing the war. Similarly, I think it's quite obvious that Riker's line is CLEARLY meant to indicate that Archer IV was an engagement that went heavily in Starfleet's favor. If the default position is to take Picard at his word, and not assume that he is exaggerating or lying without a reason (and I agree with you that it IS the default position), it is also the defaul position to assume that Riker was correctly recounting a recent event that went quite well for Starfleet (one that, in all likelihood, the Ent-D was present for). Of course, that one victory wouldn't upset the overall balance of the war.

All of that said... I DO agree that the clear implications of YE are that the UFP was losing that war, and rather badly. Sure, in theory, Picard COULD have been lying, or exaggerating, or what have you. But that's all fan speculation. Which is fine; there's nothing wrong with speculation, that's partly why we're even here on this BBS, but it is just that. There is no reason to think that the creators of the show had any of these things in mind when they wrote the episode. "Yesterday's Enterprise" is about an alternate reality in which the UFP was fighting, and badly losing, a long war against the Klingons.

All of THAT said... I don't like it. I don't deny that YE is about what it is about, but I feel it contradicts the rest of the filmed canon. If you were to remove YE, I think the evidence favors a Federation victory, so my problem with YE is that it contradicts everything else. I think there could be specific reasons for why the war went so badly for the Feds, and that's an interesting topic to ponder, but it would still be just speculation (and again, nothing wrong with that, it's fun.)

You've got me there friend , what I said cuts both ways. However, "pasting" is a lot more ambiguous than "defeat" or "inevitable". Regardless, when you strip YE to its base facts, the Klingons got a pasting at Archer IV and the Federation lost half of its fleet and is six months away from surrender.

 

[T'Girl]

The Ent-D could well have ran into klingon ships at Archer IV and defeated them thus giving them a pasting. It need not have been some massive victory for the Federation.

The impression I received from the episode was that the battle at Archer Four was won by the Federation and not the Enterprise herself. When Riker said "We," Riker (IMO) meant "our side."

At the end of the episode, when we return to the prime universe, Picard says that the ship is heading towards Archer Four, and not away. Of course the YE universe Enterprise could have been headed the opposite direction.

A pasting doesn't refer to the size of an engagement.

In terms of the size of the battle (dictionary definition again), Riker said that the Klingons were "defeated soundly." We gave Them, the Federation gave the Klingon Empire. A few Starfleet vessels destroying a few Klingon vessels would not be a "forcefully strike" against the Empire. Riker's statement indicates that something significant happen at Archer Four.

 

[Rojixus]

The Ent-D could well have ran into klingon ships at Archer IV and defeated them thus giving them a pasting. It need not have been some massive victory for the Federation.

The impression I received from the episode was that the battle at Archer Four was won by the Federation and not the Enterprise herself. When Riker said "We," Riker (IMO) meant "our side."

At the end of the episode, when we return to the prime universe, Picard says that the ship is heading towards Archer Four, and not away. Of course the YE universe Enterprise could have been headed the opposite direction.

A pasting doesn't refer to the size of an engagement.

In terms of the size of the battle (dictionary definition again), Riker said that the Klingons were "defeated soundly." We gave Them, the Federation gave the Klingon Empire. A few Starfleet vessels destroying a few Klingon vessels would not be a "forcefully strike" against the Empire. Riker's statement indicates that something significant happen at Archer Four.

Either that or it was one of those "moral victories" you here about from time to time, chase off a few Klingon scout ships and call it a pasting. Like I said, the term "pasting" is highly ambiguous.