Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[Paradon]

Didn't Worf say the Dominion could build ships faster than they could destroy them? That's why they went into the Dominion territory to destroy their shipyard and cloning facilities.

And I'm sure they have more in the Delta Quadrant to maintain their sovereignty over other subjugated races and worlds.

Plus the Dominion had no experienced pilots. That's why they were shooting them down like skeet. And they probably would have needed ships to protect other areas in case of invasion, which did happen to Betazed and Vulcan. If those 2,000 ships came through the wormhole, the station would have been in Dominion's control.

 

[Deks]

It was mentioned that the Dominion has faster ship construction capabilities... we don't know how much faster they are though.

It's not the Delta Quadrant but Gamma Quadrant. The Dominion most likely sent the bulk of their forces from their space and kept a skeleton portion to control subjucated races and worlds (because they need very little... in fact, fear is what keeps them in line).

The station might have been under Dominion's control with those 2000 ships, but you're forgetting that we barely saw a fraction of Federation forces alone.
I mean, for 8000 Ly's of space, I find it highly unlikely the feds have a couple of thousand ships at their disposal.
8000 to 10000 seems like a much better number for a territory of that size.

 

[Paradon]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

 

[Rojixus]

You reject to keep an open mind for some reason and that kind of perception is very close to religious behavior... not scientific (at all).

You are the last one to talk about narrow-minded dogmatism. You cling so fervently to "The Federation Always Wins no Matter What" mentality that you refuse to believe evidence presented to you indicating that no, the Federation does not win every time, some times it does loose. You are desperate to find a way for the Federation to win when, from watching the episode, that's clearly not going to happen. The more you try to retread old arguments, the more you look deluded and desperate. Cleanse your mind of any preconceived notions and prejudices and just watch the episode, do not try to spin the facts or manipulate them to fit your beliefs. You will find, if you stick to the basic facts presented in the episode that the Federation fought a 20 year war with the Klingons and was six months from surrender. Barring some deus ex machina ass-pull like in the Dominion War, it is most likely the Federation would surrender at the end of the six months.

 

[mupps]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

Most Dominion ships where the "small" Jem'Hadar fighters. They could probably churn them out rapidly but they'd need 3-4/1 odds on most Fed ships to have a good chance of victory.

Some thing like a Defiant class could take out 3-4 of them quite easily most times, I could forsee something like a Prometheus class being capable of twice that number.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You are the last one to talk about narrow-minded dogmatism. You cling so fervently to "The Federation Always Wins no Matter What" mentality that you refuse to believe evidence presented to you indicating that no, the Federation does not win every time, some times it does loose.

In the show I watch (yes, I've seen every episode), the Federation only loses in other timelines. They always win in the main one.

 

[T'Girl]

just watch the episode

Picard meets with Guinan, she tell Picard: "I'm not suggesting. That ship from the past is not supposed to be here. It's got to go back."

Picard meets with Garrett in sickbay. Picard broaches the idea of the Enterprise Cee returning. Garrett responds with: "Return to the battle? We barely escaped with our lives. If we returned, we'd be destroyed."

Picard meets with Data on the bridge, confirming that the Enterprise Cee could return through the rift.

Garrett meets with Castillo and Yar, Garrett says: "... Captain Picard told me, the Federation can use all the help it can get."

Picard meets again with Guinan, she tell him: "We've known each other a long time ... Now, I've told you what you must do. You have only your trust in me to help you decide to do it."

Picard meets with his senior officers in his ready room, he discusses his reasons to send the Enterprise back, to possibly prevent the war. At no point does he mention the Federation's supposed upcoming surrender. Nor is there any talk of the war going badly. Riker is openly against the idea.

Picard meets with Garrett on the Enterprise Cee's bridge, Garrett tell him that she has informed her crew that they are staying in the future: "And we'd better get used to being in the here and now."

It's only after that statement, that Picard says to Garrett:

1) If you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful.
2) The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known.
3) Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable.
4) Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender.
5) One more ship will make no difference in the here and now.
6) Twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.

Picard wanted Garrett to volunteer to return, he loads her down with duty, reason, logic and guilt. His bullet points feature the hopelessness of the future and the promise of the past.

Garrett agrees to return.

 

[indolover]

toe-to-toe implies the Lakota had a clear chance of victory.

Wrong, toe-to-toe mean up close and evenly matched.

we see the Federation fighting the Klingons in a 20 year war in which the Federation is loosing.

Thing is, we didn't see that. We get from Riker that the Klingon recently receive a "pasting," a implied victory. The Enterprise battles one Klingon ship. And is apparently destroyed herself at the end, but only after taking out one Klingon ship.

So, just from the episode, the Federation's forces are doing pretty good.

The Enterprise Dee might have done better if she could have maneuvered, free of the need to protect the other Enterprise.

The Nazis won Operation Market Garden. in general, were they winning the war? One battle in itself cannot denote a total picture of a conflict.

 

[indolover]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

Says who? We've never known the complete size of Starfleet, whether in ship numbers or personnel.

 

[Rojixus]

If the war was going so good for the Federation, Picard wouldn't have wanted Garret to go back in time in the first place. If the Federation had a chance of victory, time travel could have put that victory in jeopardy. Picard sent Garret back because he was desperate to find anyway to not loose to the Klingons. The whole time travel deal was an act of desperation.

In the show I watch (yes, I've seen every episode), the Federation only loses in other timelines. They always win in the main one.

If the Federation did loose, there wouldn't be anymore Star Trek now would there?

 

[mupps]

If the war was going so good for the Federation, Picard wouldn't have wanted Garret to go back in time in the first place. If the Federation had a chance of victory, time travel could have put that victory in jeopardy. Picard sent Garret back because he was desperate to find anyway to not loose to the Klingons. The whole time travel deal was an act of desperation.

Or he wanted to make sure a 20 year war with billions of casualties never happened.

There were 3 options open to him.

Loose the war (Your reading of the situation)

Maybe win/stalemate it (other peoples opinion on here)

Send the Enterprise Cee back to past where she could alter the future to what they hoped/expected would be the better timeline we are used to.

They chose to try and make the better future, which by what we saw afterwards they managed to do.

 

[Paradon]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

Says who? We've never known the complete size of Starfleet, whether in ship numbers or personnel.

They overran Betazed and Vulcan, and Worf suggested that they shoud go deep into Dominion territory to destroy their shipyards to cripple their ability to wage war.

 

[Rojixus]

If the war was going so good for the Federation, Picard wouldn't have wanted Garret to go back in time in the first place. If the Federation had a chance of victory, time travel could have put that victory in jeopardy. Picard sent Garret back because he was desperate to find anyway to not loose to the Klingons. The whole time travel deal was an act of desperation.

Or he wanted to make sure a 20 year war with billions of casualties never happened.

There were 3 options open to him.

Loose the war (Your reading of the situation)

Maybe win/stalemate it (other peoples opinion on here)

Send the Enterprise Cee back to past where she could alter the future to what they hoped/expected would be the better timeline we are used to.

They chose to try and make the better future, which by what we saw afterwards they managed to do.

But why take the risk? With time travel, anything is possible. By sending the E-C back, they could cause things to go better for the Federation or far worse. They have no idea how time travel would effect the war.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But why take the risk? With time travel, anything is possible. By sending the E-C back, they could cause things to go better for the Federation or far worse. They have no idea how time travel would effect the war.

'Cause Guinan had the ear of Picard in that timeline too. 'Cause ultimately it seemed "the right thing to do", it seemed that the Ent-C "belonged" back in that time. 'Cause Yar got that spooky feeling too. Ya know.

 

[T'Girl]

The Nazis won Operation Market Garden. in general, were they winning the war? One battle in itself cannot denote a total picture of a conflict.

But the total picture of the conflict is solely contained in this one episode, and we saw/heard more than one battle..

Thefreedictionary defines paste (or pasting) as a slang term for; to strike forcefully or to defeat soundly. Merriam-Webster has this (past·ing), a noun: A severe beating or defeat.

Riker said they had given the Klingons a "pasting" at Archer Four. Not that they had prevented the Klingons from crossing a small number of bridges.

The Enterprise engaged and drove off a bird of prey. And destroyed a battlecrusier, before being presumable destroyed herself. Just from this, which is all we have, the Federation is doing pretty good.

----

With Market Garden, all the Nazi did is delay the Allies move into Germany for a few months over the winter of 1944-45. Nazi Germany had been progressively losing for some time, preventing the taking of a few bridges had no long term effect on the second world war's conclusion. The Nazi's "win" was meaningless.

 

[mupps]

I thought they had more ships than the Fed, even...

I think most of those Federation ships are supposed to protect vital and key sectors of space before they began invasion on key systems. And before the war started they were crippled when the Borg invaded the Fed. A lot of people died at Wolf 359, remember?

Says who? We've never known the complete size of Starfleet, whether in ship numbers or personnel.

They overran Betazed and Vulcan, and Worf suggested that they shoud go deep into Dominion territory to destroy their shipyards to cripple their ability to wage war.

They didn't take Vulcan

 

[Deks]

You reject to keep an open mind for some reason and that kind of perception is very close to religious behavior... not scientific (at all).

You are the last one to talk about narrow-minded dogmatism. You cling so fervently to "The Federation Always Wins no Matter What" mentality that you refuse to believe evidence presented to you indicating that no, the Federation does not win every time, some times it does loose. You are desperate to find a way for the Federation to win when, from watching the episode, that's clearly not going to happen. The more you try to retread old arguments, the more you look deluded and desperate. Cleanse your mind of any preconceived notions and prejudices and just watch the episode, do not try to spin the facts or manipulate them to fit your beliefs. You will find, if you stick to the basic facts presented in the episode that the Federation fought a 20 year war with the Klingons and was six months from surrender. Barring some deus ex machina ass-pull like in the Dominion War, it is most likely the Federation would surrender at the end of the six months.

Wow... do you have trouble with reading?
I said there's also a possibility that the Federation could lose, but that we couldn't make any concrete conclusions either way due to the loose remarks in YE episode.
I also remember saying that there is a possibility that the Federation could win or end the conflict in a stalemate.
So, I presented possibilities, based on my interpretation of the episode and what was said.
You on the other hand neglect to take any other possibility in mind (despite the premise the YE episode could be interpreted in such a way), and that to me indicates narrow-mindedness.
One other thing... I also mentioned it was presented in Trek on numerous occasions how the Feds managed to 'pull a victory out of their rear ends' on regular occasions which in turn presents a possibility that it could happen in YE timeline even if it unfolded in a manner that you envisioned (which isn't set in stone).

My comment about the Dominion War and Federation's abilities was separate based on what was established/seen in Trek throughout all this time.
Ds9 is not my favorite and I find it a bit of a bore-fest if anything, and there have been multiple examples where the Feds and their capabilities were dumbed down for the sake of drama (other shows did it as well, but DS9 takes the cake because they made a war story arc and completely messed up numerous aspects - that ground combat episode 'AR-533' is the pinnacle of their stupidity as well).
But of course, it's just an opinion, subject to change, not set in stone.
I always keep an open mind to the possibility I could be mistaken. My theory/interpretation regarding YE is subject to that as well... you on the other hand...

 

[T'Girl]

You reject to keep an open mind for some reason ...

I also remember saying that there is a possibility that the Federation could win or end the conflict in a stalemate...

Bearing in mind it's the Federation, a negoiated treaty would also be on the table. If the federation could move the kingons into the correct position, The events of TUC show that the Klingon will bargain if it's in their best interests.

Old Brazilian saying: "Alway leave room for your enemy, to become your friend."

 

[indolover]

It's been said though (and canonically) that Klingons never surrender, and only consider victory or dying honourable deaths as options. Besides, TOS did not establish the Klingon Kahlessian (so to speak lol) honour code, so I personally consider it a continuity error.

I think we've only ever seen Klingons abandon wars due to reasons of honour. Had the Martok Changeling not engineered the season 5 opener war, then the Klingons would have fought on.

 

[indolover]

The Nazis won Operation Market Garden. in general, were they winning the war? One battle in itself cannot denote a total picture of a conflict.

But the total picture of the conflict is solely contained in this one episode, and we saw/heard more than one battle..

Thefreedictionary defines paste (or pasting) as a slang term for; to strike forcefully or to defeat soundly. Merriam-Webster has this (past·ing), a noun: A severe beating or defeat.

Riker said they had given the Klingons a "pasting" at Archer Four. Not that they had prevented the Klingons from crossing a small number of bridges.

The Enterprise engaged and drove off a bird of prey. And destroyed a battlecrusier, before being presumable destroyed herself. Just from this, which is all we have, the Federation is doing pretty good.

----

With Market Garden, all the Nazi did is delay the Allies move into Germany for a few months over the winter of 1944-45. Nazi Germany had been progressively losing for some time, preventing the taking of a few bridges had no long term effect on the second world war's conclusion. The Nazi's "win" was meaningless.

Even still, it could have been a localised battle in that theatre of space. We don't know if it had consequences for the entire war effort. The Federation and Klingon Empire are both large, as is known space in the Alpha Quadrant (including Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, Ferengi, etc.) As there were several fronts/theatres in the Dominion War, the same surely would apply in a Klingon/Federation war. Whilst Picard and co. pasted Klingons in Archer IV, the Klingons could have won battles near Vulcan, Betazed, or even in unclaimed spaces dozens/hundreds of lightyears from both parties.