Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[FordSVT]

With regards to the Federation/Cardassian war, I was always under the impression that it was a relatively small, localized war, mostly the Federation playing on defence against a pissed off Cardassia over territorial and economic issues. The Federation has no interest in conquering and occupying a nation like Cardassia. This is like saying a retarded kid can beat you up just because you didn't flip out on him and pound him into the ground when he pushed you. The stakes weren't high enough for the Feds to wage a total war on Cardassia, it would be different against an enemy that was literally knocking on Earth's door, as it was during the Dominion War.

Also, I'm not certain how relevant it is to bring up the alternate history of "Yesterday's Enterprise". That was a different universe that diverged 25 years prior. For all we know (fanfic hat on), after the events of Narendra III, the Klingons had a massive military build up for their war against the Romulans, then turned it against the Feds in sneak attacks that crippled the Federation's ship-building capacity, maybe a few of the major worlds like Vulcan or Andoria or even Earth, and put the Federation at a disadvantage they wouldn't ever recover from. The point is, it's alternate history, we've got no idea what the differences are. Using it as an argument to debate the Feds versus the Klingons during the TNG era, or post-Dominion war, or whatever, doesn't dictate outcomes.

As an aside, just reading through the episode notes, YE garnered 12 million viewers that week, 20% higher than the season average of about 10 million viewers.

Ten million viewers. For Star Trek. Those were the days! (of fewer entertainment choices )

 

[Rojixus]

Regardless, we're talking about a hypothetical war between the Federation and the Klingons. YE showed us what such a war would be like, apparently the Federation looses out to the Klingons when we stick to the basic facts and throw out any biases, speculations or prejudices on your end. The Federation had a twenty year war to get themselves on a war-footing, it's folly to assume they didn't. Despite this, the Federation was still going to surrender to the Klingons.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Regardless, we're talking about a hypothetical war between the Federation and the Klingons. YE showed us what such a war would be like,

No it showed us how a war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire that started in the 2340s (with an at peace federation) would go, (and it was vauge on what ultimatly lead to the current state of that war at that) not one fought in the 2370s WHEN THEIR TECH WAS BETTER.

What we have seen from the 2370s shows the federation being able to hold its own due to likely having better tech as a result of both being at a later time AND gearing up for conflicts with the Borg and Dominion who are way more powerful then the klingons.

Oh and FYI

Yesterday's Enterprise takes place later in the canon,

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. WHEN. IT. TAKES. PLACE.

It matters when it was MADE, hence why ENTERPRISE is canon and 2330s Federation Starships look more advanced then TOS ones. Its called a recont, you know when they change something that has been said previously to fit in what they are doing now, which I believe Star Trek has been KNOWN TO DO ON FROM TIME TO TIME.

 

[T'Girl]

I'd say those were desperation tactics. If the Federation were making more ships than they were loosing, they wouldn't have to rely on 20 year old ships

We've seen Starfleet use Excelsior class ships in the 24th century. Using "old ships" doesn't seem to be a problem for them, the Excelsior's were likely upgraded multiple times throughout the decades of their service.

they would instead spend the time making another warship instead of wasting it trying to upgrade an old ship not designed for combat.

The Ambassador's were a major starship class, so yes it was designed for combat.



After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US Navy repaired all but two of the eight battleships attacked. Two of the battleships sunk were returned to wartime service. This was not an act of "desperation," rather making good good use of available assets.

Modernizing the Enterprise Cee, and employing her in the war would have been no different than those battleships.

 

[Rojixus]

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. WHEN. IT. TAKES. PLACE.

It very well does matter when it takes place, the Federation of the 23rd century is not the same as the Federation of the 24th century. The Klingon Empire of 2293 IS NOT the same as the Klingon Empire of 2345.

WHEN THEIR TECH WAS BETTER.

First off, yelling doesn't strengthen your point. Second, HOW was their tech better? What did they have that they didn't have before? Quantum torpedoes? What makes them better than photon torpedoes? Every time we've seen QTs in action, they've done just as much damage as photon torpedoes.

The Ambassador's were a major starship class, so yes it was designed for combat.

The Ambassador-class was commissioned before the war started,it wasn't designed from the ground up for combat.

We've seen Starfleet use Excelsior class ships in the 24th century. Using "old ships" doesn't seem to be a problem for them, the Excelsior's were likely upgraded multiple times throughout the decades of their service.

Most of the time we've seen Excelsior class ships was before the Federation was on a war-footing, operating on relatively low-risk missions. Come the Dominion War, the Excelsiors are getting swatted like flies. The Federation would have been better off making more Akira-classes.

 

[Deks]

First off, the difference between the 23rd century and 24th century SF would be: more advanced shields, weapons, hull materials (in contemporary ships, and enhanced hull in older designs), Warp speeds, etc...
Quantum torpedoes strength varied between the shows and episodes if anything.
Also, the Excelsiors were hardly 'swatted like flies'.
Or the Mirandas... we've seen a few instances (3 or 4 times at most, with re-used scenes where a single, or 2 Miranda or Excelsior class ship bites the dust, and people automatically assume 'they were going down like flies').
For one thing, when the Lakota (an Excelsior class ship) was fully upgraded before the start of Dominion War, it was able to go toe to toe with a Defiant.
Implying you can take an 80 year old design and bring it up on par with other contemporary ships (war-ships no less).

I might surmise that before the war started in YE timeline between the Feds and Klingons, the Feds might not have upgraded their older ships yet (or have missed the upgrade cycle which could have proved detrimental in certain skirmishes, and the Klingons even if they had inferior ships, could have used larger numbers to win some battles, but not the war).

From what we witnessed on-screen, a single Klingon ship is usually inferior to a Federation one (this happened to have been the case even in the TMP era).
Why do you think the Empire sent 3 K'Vorts after the Enterprise-D?
And they were no ordinary BoP. They were larger, with raised wings, implying a more powerful design from the BoP (though the Enterprise-D should have repeated the Sierra torpedo trick with all of them to kill their shields and then phaser them for the ending - of course, the writers HAD to dumb it all down for the sake of drama though).

As for the Ambassador class being commissioned before the war started... it was effectively a first step towards implementing phaser strips onboard ships for one thing.
It had a coverage similar/same to the Enterprise-D, along with a full torpedo compliment.
I would say it's fighting ability would be on par with the Enterprise-D of the prime timeline, minus the technological gap of 20 years, which still makes it a very decent fighting vessel.

Furthermore, as others noted, there are a variety of factors in YE that can be interpreted either way, so I'm not ready to 'jump the gun' and say that the Federation would have surrendered or lost the war just because Picard happened to say so, when in fact we don't know whether or not he was telling the truth or not in the first place, what's the state of the Klingon empire, etc...

 

[Rojixus]

You people keep giving me speculations. It doesn't matter what state the Klingon Empire was in, when one side surrenders the other side wins by default. Are any of you going to honestly say the Federation was winning that war?

Why do you think the Empire sent 3 K'Vorts after the Enterprise-D?

The fact that the Klingons even sent 3 K'Vorts implies that the Klingons are producing ships at a faster rate than the Federation, that's why the Federation is so eager to field any ships they could get. Although the Enterprise-D managed to take one K'Vort out, the other two appeared to be enough to destroy the E-D.

For one thing, when the Lakota (an Excelsior class ship) was fully upgraded before the start of Dominion War, it was able to go toe to toe with a Defiant.

No it wasn't. toe-to-toe implies the Lakota had a clear chance of victory. The only reason the Lakota wasn't a burnt out hull was because the crew on the Defiant didn't want to destroy the Lakota, only disable it.

Quantum torpedoes strength varied between the shows and episodes if anything.

No they didn't. Quantum torpedoes did no more damage than photon torpedoes were shown to do.

Or the Mirandas... we've seen a few instances (3 or 4 times at most, with re-used scenes where a single, or 2 Miranda or Excelsior class ship bites the dust, and people automatically assume 'they were going down like flies').

I don't know what the technical term for it is, but whenever an Excelsior or a Miranda got hit, they blew up.

Furthermore, as others noted, there are a variety of factors in YE that can be interpreted either way, so I'm not ready to 'jump the gun' and say that the Federation would have surrendered or lost the war just because Picard happened to say so, when in fact we don't know whether or not he was telling the truth or not in the first place, what's the state of the Klingon empire, etc...

If you're going to sit there and doubt the honesty of any statement that doesn't match your personal preferences, no amount of evidence will be enough for you.

When we get down to the basic facts free of prejudice and preconceived notions, we see the Federation fighting the Klingons in a 20 year war in which the Federation is loosing.

 

[T'Girl]

The Ambassador-class was commissioned before the war started,it wasn't designed from the ground up for combat.

The Ambassador Class starships were seen on the show in combat assignments. In Redemption (Part Two), Commander Riker commands the USS Excalibur as part of the blockade. In the pilot Emissary, the USS Yamaguchi appears as part of the flashback of the Starfleet's attack on the Borg cube at Wolf 359.

A non-combat vessel certainly would not have been included in the fleet action against the Borg. It's unlikely that Picard would have included one as part of his blockade.

From the shooting model, the Ambassador has eight phaser strips, six on the saucer and one on each of the pylons. Two forward torpedo tubes and one aft (below the shuttlebay). Starfleet's big "cruisers" are what the Federations uses to defend itself and to fight it's wars. As I stated before, it was designed for combat.

the Dominion War, the Excelsiors are getting swatted like flies

All Starfleet starship classes received a swatting from the Dominion, the first major Starfleet ship they destroyed was a Galaxy class, the Excelsiors were in good company. Eventually even the "designed from the ground up for combat" Defiant went down.

Excelsiors were a fixture on the battle lines of the Dominion War, and were present at Wolf 359.



Sisko: "Surrender is not an option!"

 

[Rojixus]

The Ambassador-class could serve as a combat vessel, but it is not primarily a warship, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Starfleet was sending any ship in the area that could fight to Wolf 359, whether it was a warship or not. And this goes without saying, the Federation did loose at Wolf 359, BADLY.

 

[antiquityscion]

The Ambassador-class could serve as a combat vessel, but it is not primarily a warship, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Starfleet was sending any ship in the area that could fight to Wolf 359, whether it was a warship or not. And this goes without saying, the Federation did loose at Wolf 359, BADLY.

True, it was a ship of exploration, like almost all federation ships, save for the Defiant class, which was a true war ship.

However, I wouldn't dismiss the Ambassador class so easily. Just because a ship wasn't originally designed to be a war ship, doesn't mean it can't be retrofitted to be brought up to warship status. It is not uncommon to re purpose equipment for other uses. Did you know that the Soviet Union had many passenger aircraft operated by Aeroflot, and almost all of their aircraft were simply bombers retrofitted to be passenger aircraft? They even retained their bombing bays, and didn't even bother to weld them shut, and the US military intelligence would count them as bombers, when it came to Air order of battle. Likewise, under the Reagan administration, they brought many WW2 era war ships out of mothball, and mounted surface to air and surface to surface missiles on them, making them relevant once more.

So in the case of Trek, the Ambassador class had a large hull that could be retrofitted for more phaser banks or photon torpedo bays (heck it was really just a slightly smaller version of the Galaxy class). It would be a very easy mod, actually. Shield upgrades, and extra hull armor plating are also easy mods. Also, the large saucer hull would double as a troop transport, as well. So, I would say a war time Ambassador class, with very little effort could be a very relevant and formidable warship, and could possibly stand toe to toe with the best of the Klingon warships .

 

[Paradon]

Klingons seem to have money as shown on DS9, so they must have some kind of economic system in place.

It was mentioned before that the Fed do not have money in FC. It is true that you can't have an economy without people working and contributing to the economy by spending and keeping the money flowing.

And i think it's a lot cheaper to just refitted the old ships with newer technologies and upgrading some systems. How fast can technologies progress in only a few decades? There are countries that ares still trying to build fighter jets as good as the F-18... I don't even know why the U.S. even build the newer jets that cost trillions of dollars amidst the economic crisis.

 

[Deks]

The Ambassador-class could serve as a combat vessel, but it is not primarily a warship, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Starfleet was sending any ship in the area that could fight to Wolf 359, whether it was a warship or not. And this goes without saying, the Federation did loose at Wolf 359, BADLY.

Even if it WAS a warship, the battle of Wolf 359 would not have gone any better.
Picard provided all of his knowledge to the Borg, and if they were able to adapt to some of the Enterprise-D attacks previously, other ships wouldn't really make much difference... besides, SF didn't know about Borg sucking all of Picards knowledge, so SF captains of those 39 ships that went down in flames were using tactics Picard was familiar with.

As for the YE Federation... they did not surrender.
Picard merely said the Federation is projecting surrender in 6 months time, and yet we have 0 clue on what WOULD happen.

Take the Dominion War and 'Statistical probabilities' for example... Federation tacticians were also projecting very bleak options for the outcome of the War... and as Sisko so eloquently stated: 'Defeat is not an option'.
Plus the Federation won.
Even if Picard was telling the truth to Garret (which we don't know for certain), there are a whole number of factors that could happen in mere 6 months time that could have the Federation with the war... or end it in a stalemate.

You on the other hand are jumping to conclusions and way ahead of yourself if you think the outcome would happen in the manner it was actually implied.

 

[Paradon]

To tell you the truth the wormhole aliens planed the whole thing and wiped out the Dominion fleet. I think they were protecting the Bajorans without looking like they were involved because the Dominions could just as easily killed them.

And at Wolf 359 the Borg wasn't even trying...if they wanted to assimilate the Fed, they would have sent a fleet into the Alpha Quadrant. We saw on "Unimatrix Zero" the Borg queen destroying the ships to prove she was serious, and it showed that they had plenty of ships (more than the Fed can count, probably)...because she was destroying them like they weren't any significant consequences.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Take the Dominion War and 'Statistical probabilities' for example... Federation tacticians were also projecting very bleak options for the outcome of the War... and as Sisko so eloquently stated: 'Defeat is not an option'.
Plus the Federation won.

Which raises the question, what would Section 31 have done in a war with the Klingons?

 

[Paradon]

I think the term would be: don't piss off the Klingons...if it isn't necessary.

 

[T'Girl]

toe-to-toe implies the Lakota had a clear chance of victory.

Wrong, toe-to-toe mean up close and evenly matched.

we see the Federation fighting the Klingons in a 20 year war in which the Federation is loosing.

Thing is, we didn't see that. We get from Riker that the Klingon recently receive a "pasting," a implied victory. The Enterprise battles one Klingon ship. And is apparently destroyed herself at the end, but only after taking out one Klingon ship.

So, just from the episode, the Federation's forces are doing pretty good.

The Enterprise Dee might have done better if she could have maneuvered, free of the need to protect the other Enterprise.

 

[mupps]

Take the Dominion War and 'Statistical probabilities' for example... Federation tacticians were also projecting very bleak options for the outcome of the War... and as Sisko so eloquently stated: 'Defeat is not an option'.
Plus the Federation won.

Which raises the question, what would Section 31 have done in a war with the Klingons?

Finished what Praxis had started...

 

[mupps]

The Ambassador-class could serve as a combat vessel, but it is not primarily a warship, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Starfleet was sending any ship in the area that could fight to Wolf 359, whether it was a warship or not. And this goes without saying, the Federation did loose at Wolf 359, BADLY.

Even if it WAS a warship, the battle of Wolf 359 would not have gone any better.
Picard provided all of his knowledge to the Borg, and if they were able to adapt to some of the Enterprise-D attacks previously, other ships wouldn't really make much difference... besides, SF didn't know about Borg sucking all of Picards knowledge, so SF captains of those 39 ships that went down in flames were using tactics Picard was familiar with.

As for the YE Federation... they did not surrender.
Picard merely said the Federation is projecting surrender in 6 months time, and yet we have 0 clue on what WOULD happen.

Take the Dominion War and 'Statistical probabilities' for example... Federation tacticians were also projecting very bleak options for the outcome of the War... and as Sisko so eloquently stated: 'Defeat is not an option'.
Plus the Federation won.

Which reminds me..in YE, 20 years of war has left 40 Billion casualties while the augemented merry band in SP was estimating 900 Billion dead and a loss in the Dominion war.

In that context the YE Fed Vs Klingon war seems like a little dust up.

 

[Rojixus]

The Ambassador-class could serve as a combat vessel, but it is not primarily a warship, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Starfleet was sending any ship in the area that could fight to Wolf 359, whether it was a warship or not. And this goes without saying, the Federation did loose at Wolf 359, BADLY.

Even if it WAS a warship, the battle of Wolf 359 would not have gone any better.
Picard provided all of his knowledge to the Borg, and if they were able to adapt to some of the Enterprise-D attacks previously, other ships wouldn't really make much difference... besides, SF didn't know about Borg sucking all of Picards knowledge, so SF captains of those 39 ships that went down in flames were using tactics Picard was familiar with.

As for the YE Federation... they did not surrender.
Picard merely said the Federation is projecting surrender in 6 months time, and yet we have 0 clue on what WOULD happen.

Take the Dominion War and 'Statistical probabilities' for example... Federation tacticians were also projecting very bleak options for the outcome of the War... and as Sisko so eloquently stated: 'Defeat is not an option'.
Plus the Federation won.
Even if Picard was telling the truth to Garret (which we don't know for certain), there are a whole number of factors that could happen in mere 6 months time that could have the Federation with the war... or end it in a stalemate.

You on the other hand are jumping to conclusions and way ahead of yourself if you think the outcome would happen in the manner it was actually implied.

If you truly believe the Federation is going to pull a victory out of its ass at the last minute, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I also suppose the Japanese had a chance to win World War II in the last six months as well. And as I've said before, the E-D took out one Klingon ship, ONE. There was still two left.

We get from Riker that the Klingon recently receive a "pasting," a implied victory.

As I already said, Riker did not say the Federation won that battle. He merely said the Klingons got a "pasting", which could be interpreted in many ways. For all you know, Archer IV could have been a heroic last stand by the Federation that, while still resulting in a Klingon victory, resulted in many Klingon casualties. In any case, even the CSA was able to pull off a few victories before the Civil War ended.

How fast can technologies progress in only a few decades?

Exactly.

 

[Deks]

To tell you the truth the wormhole aliens planed the whole thing and wiped out the Dominion fleet. I think they were protecting the Bajorans without looking like they were involved because the Dominions could just as easily killed them.

Touche, but from in-universe perspective alone, the Federation supposed to be able to go on it's own vs the Dominon (because, it was implied by one of the Changelings before the war even began that the Federation would be the only real threat to them - followed by Weyoun's statement that it would be 'very difficult to hold a territory as vast as the Federation').
But as it happened many times throughout DS9, SF and the Federation were severely dumbed down in terms of capabilities and ships. That fleet of 2000 ships coming through the Wormhole... the Feds alone should have been able to deal with, and yet, it seemed as if the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant was at stake because of it.
Seriously? All 3 major powers in the AQ were in danger? Are the Klingon and Romulan Empires made of a handful of ships?
The Federation was in TNG implies by none other than Q to be the 'king of the anthill' (biggest and best compared to both the Klingons and the Romulans).
And yet on numerous situations, the writers went up and contradicted themselves.

And at Wolf 359 the Borg wasn't even trying...if they wanted to assimilate the Fed, they would have sent a fleet into the Alpha Quadrant. We saw on "Unimatrix Zero" the Borg queen destroying the ships to prove she was serious, and it showed that they had plenty of ships (more than the Fed can count, probably)...because she was destroying them like they weren't any significant consequences.

The Borg didn't have to try hard really.
They already adapted mostly to Federation tech from analyzing and experiencing the Enterprise-D (the most advanced/powerful ship of SF at the time).
Besides, the Borg's way of dealing with the Federation could be interpreted as 'raw material'/potential.
Potential to develop advanced technologies against the Borg in a short amount of time, which the Borg themselves could assimilate later on (and raw material in terms of the vastness of the Federation - the drones, ships and whatnot).

If you truly believe the Federation is going to pull a victory out of its ass at the last minute, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I also suppose the Japanese had a chance to win World War II in the last six months as well. And as I've said before, the E-D took out one Klingon ship, ONE. There was still two left.

You with your 'belief' again. Such laughable terminology. Just how many times did Federation ships and crews find themselves against overwhelming odds and managed to 'pull a victory out of their rear ends'?
Examples are evident throughout ALL of Trek.
But let's put that on the sidelines.

You are the one who are jumping with conclusions based on a few lines (spoken under stressful and difficult circumstances at best) and projecting 'doom and gloom' on those aspects alone.
You are the one who 'believes' apparently and do not hold ANY possibility in mind that things could change from what was SAID (or that what was said could have been wrong, or a flat out lie).
You reject to keep an open mind for some reason and that kind of perception is very close to religious behavior... not scientific (at all).

You seem to be 'dead set' in your perception that things will happen the way you imagined (I could be wrong though).
Since Trek has a track record 'turning the tables' in relatively short amount of time, I'd say there is a possibility in YE timeline that the Federation could win or end the war in a stalemate.
There is of course the possibility it could lose, but since we don't know what will happen and were given vague details at best, making conclusions about that particular conflict would be in my opinion, idiotic.