Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[T'Girl]

The Klingons also have cloaking devices which would always give them an edge.

And they had the cloak, which at the time, made them seem scary.

But how long would the Klingons exclusively have a cloaking device? Starfleet wasn't without a cloaking device because they couldn't produce one, it was because they agreed by treaty not to produce one.

A war that could kill billions trumps any treaty

Yet, there's no proof he did lie to her.

Picard certainly had the motivation to do so. And the episode contained no verification of Picard's statement, Riker said that the Klingons had recently suffered a major defeat at the hands of Starfleet. The crew seemed in good morale. Starfleet had suffer ship loses over the course of a two decade long war, but was still capable of building Galaxy class "battleships."

 

[Rojixus]

The Klingons science and military is probably underfunded...because it's not a democratic society. You couldn't pay all the smart people for the emotional and physical stress of working for researches that help improve the Klingon Empire military, science and economy. Smart and resourceful people would go where the money is...if it doesn't pay for all the emotional stress, then they wouldn't stick around for long.

They must get rewarded well enough because once again I refer you to Yesterday's Enterprise and All Good Things...

A war that could kill billions trumps any treaty

And yet, the Enterprise-D did not appear to have a cloaking device.

Picard certainly had the motivation to do so. And the episode contained no verification of Picard's statement, Riker said that the Klingons had recently suffered a major defeat at the hands of Starfleet. The crew seemed in good morale. Starfleet had suffer ship loses over the course of a two decade long war, but was still capable of building Galaxy class "battleships."

Once again, there is not a shred of proof that Picard is lying. Picard also said that the Federation's pending defeat was not generally known. And Riker merely said the Klingons were given a "pasting". That could mean anything from a Federation victory to a heroic last stand by the Federation to a Klingon victory that was spun by Federation propaganda as a "moral victory". Also, we don't know how many Galaxy-class battleships the Federation built, it could be a whole fleet or just six.

 

[Paradon]

The greatest warriors of the Klingon Empire are probably restaurant owners on DS9...

 

[Mr Silver]

There's no proof the Klingons allied with the Romulans, they aren't even mentioned. If anything, it's the Federation that would want to ally itself with the Romulans.

What is stopping them re-opening their exchange of technology pact?

Given what we know about the Romulan mentality, they wouldn't hesitate to agree to such an offer because they would reason that the Klingon forces would be weakened at the conclusion of the war (which meant the defeat of the Federation) and they could just swoop in and dominate the Empire. It makes it even easier when they Romulans have access to Klingon technology through such a trade agreement.

 

[Rojixus]

There's no proof the Klingons allied with the Romulans, they aren't even mentioned. If anything, it's the Federation that would want to ally itself with the Romulans.

What is stopping them re-opening their exchange of technology pact?

Given what we know about the Romulan mentality, they wouldn't hesitate to agree to such an offer because they would reason that the Klingon forces would be weakened at the conclusion of the war (which meant the defeat of the Federation) and they could just swoop in and dominate the Empire. It makes it even easier when they Romulans have access to Klingon technology through such a trade agreement.

Once again, there is absolutely no evidence of Romulan involvement on either side during the war. The only time the Romulans were mentioned was in the context of the Narendra III attack.

 

[Mr Silver]

There's no proof the Klingons allied with the Romulans, they aren't even mentioned. If anything, it's the Federation that would want to ally itself with the Romulans.

What is stopping them re-opening their exchange of technology pact?

Given what we know about the Romulan mentality, they wouldn't hesitate to agree to such an offer because they would reason that the Klingon forces would be weakened at the conclusion of the war (which meant the defeat of the Federation) and they could just swoop in and dominate the Empire. It makes it even easier when they Romulans have access to Klingon technology through such a trade agreement.

Once again, there is absolutely no evidence of Romulan involvement on either side during the war. The only time the Romulans were mentioned was in the context of the Narendra III attack.

Of course there wasn't evidence of involvement, but it's speculation to determine how the Klingon forces were able to gain the upper hand on the Federation. Especially when the Federation is made up of several worlds with their own respective military organisations whilst the Klingon Empire stands alone.

 

[Rojixus]

What is stopping them re-opening their exchange of technology pact?

Given what we know about the Romulan mentality, they wouldn't hesitate to agree to such an offer because they would reason that the Klingon forces would be weakened at the conclusion of the war (which meant the defeat of the Federation) and they could just swoop in and dominate the Empire. It makes it even easier when they Romulans have access to Klingon technology through such a trade agreement.

Once again, there is absolutely no evidence of Romulan involvement on either side during the war. The only time the Romulans were mentioned was in the context of the Narendra III attack.

Of course there wasn't evidence of involvement, but it's speculation to determine how the Klingon forces were able to gain the upper hand on the Federation. Especially when the Federation is made up of several worlds with their own respective military organisations whilst the Klingon Empire stands alone.

That's just it, speculation doesn't matter. The basic facts were that the Federation was facing imminent defeat at the hands of the Klingons. You can try to spin it any way you want but at the end of the day the point still stands.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Forgot to mention a while back, The Klingon-Federation War did exist a year after the attack on DS9 when they demanded the Archanis sector. That was the stalemate I was referring to. The Klingons have a tendancy to surprise attack but we have no evidence of them being decent in sustained campaigns. They never got back to Cardassia prime after the DS9 intervention, and in the Kling-Fed War it was said on screen that the Feds had stalemated them at the border and were projected to flat out counterattack as losses continued to mount.

Bottom line, Klingons are all talk and eager for war, but I could never see them deliver. They lack the tactical knowledge and internal politics tear them a part. And the Federation flat out has better ships (in the REAL timeline).

 

[Paradon]

I think Klingon are great warriors by nature...but I think they need to pay their warriors better. Suddenly, everything is better when money is involve...everybody is eager to fight! [laugh] That cure the headache because the wife's bitching at home! Honey! I need more jewelry, you fat Bak'Taq!

 

[Nightdiamond]

What made the alternate reality in Y.E significant is that it happened simply because the Federation and the Klingons never signed a peace treaty when the Enterprise C came through that time rift.

That kind of made it very,very close to normal reality.

No scientific techn-obabble, quantum signatures whatevers, they simple never became allies.

Besides Picard, Tasha said that Starfleet had lost half its fleet to the Klingons. So that means that the Klingons had been wooping serious tail.

I think they may actually stockpile a lot more ships than the Feds (although a lot are older models) because of their warlike philosophy.

The Klingons do look almost backward at times, but it seems like they know their stuff when it comes to warfare.

They did a pretty kick ass scene in Sacrifice of Angels, where they came at the nick of time and attacked the Dominion from an upward angle and then escorted the Defiant the rest of the way, blasting everything in sight.

They got the job done. Loved that scene.

 

[Rojixus]

Forgot to mention a while back, The Klingon-Federation War did exist a year after the attack on DS9 when they demanded the Archanis sector. That was the stalemate I was referring to. The Klingons have a tendancy to surprise attack but we have no evidence of them being decent in sustained campaigns. They never got back to Cardassia prime after the DS9 intervention, and in the Kling-Fed War it was said on screen that the Feds had stalemated them at the border and were projected to flat out counterattack as losses continued to mount.

Bottom line, Klingons are all talk and eager for war, but I could never see them deliver. They lack the tactical knowledge and internal politics tear them a part. And the Federation flat out has better ships (in the REAL timeline).

Again, I refer you to Yesterday's Enterprise.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Forgot to mention a while back, The Klingon-Federation War did exist a year after the attack on DS9 when they demanded the Archanis sector. That was the stalemate I was referring to. The Klingons have a tendancy to surprise attack but we have no evidence of them being decent in sustained campaigns. They never got back to Cardassia prime after the DS9 intervention, and in the Kling-Fed War it was said on screen that the Feds had stalemated them at the border and were projected to flat out counterattack as losses continued to mount.

Bottom line, Klingons are all talk and eager for war, but I could never see them deliver. They lack the tactical knowledge and internal politics tear them a part. And the Federation flat out has better ships (in the REAL timeline).

Again, I refer you to Yesterday's Enterprise.

Which isn't the main timeline and doesn't make sense after Star Trek VI.

Where as the highlighted above covers the main timeline.

 

[Rojixus]

Forgot to mention a while back, The Klingon-Federation War did exist a year after the attack on DS9 when they demanded the Archanis sector. That was the stalemate I was referring to. The Klingons have a tendancy to surprise attack but we have no evidence of them being decent in sustained campaigns. They never got back to Cardassia prime after the DS9 intervention, and in the Kling-Fed War it was said on screen that the Feds had stalemated them at the border and were projected to flat out counterattack as losses continued to mount.

Bottom line, Klingons are all talk and eager for war, but I could never see them deliver. They lack the tactical knowledge and internal politics tear them a part. And the Federation flat out has better ships (in the REAL timeline).

Again, I refer you to Yesterday's Enterprise.

Which isn't the main timeline and doesn't make sense after Star Trek VI.

Where as the highlighted above covers the main timeline.

Whether or not it makes sense to you is irrelevant, it's there, you can't ignore it. Besides, there is no indication Yesterday's Enterprise timeline is wildly divergent from the main one. All the factors are basically the same. If we were to talk about a hypothetical war between the Federation and Klingon Empire, Yesterday's Enterprise is more or less definitive in who would prevail (the Klingons). You may not like it, but you cannot dismiss it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A lot of unknowns though. For want of a nail as they say.

 

[Rojixus]

I doubt that. Yesterday's Enterprise was pretty clear: the Federation and Klingons fought a twenty year war and the Federation lost. What more do you need?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I doubt that. Yesterday's Enterprise was pretty clear: the Federation and Klingons fought a twenty year war and the Federation lost. What more do you need?

Details. Who did what. Who decided what forces would be deployed and where.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yesterday's Enterprise is more or less definitive in who would prevail (the Klingons). You may not like it, but you cannot dismiss it.

And yet the DS9 Federation/Klingon war says otherwise.

I doubt that. Yesterday's Enterprise was pretty clear: the Federation and Klingons fought a twenty year war and the Federation lost. What more do you need?

Details. Who did what. Who decided what forces would be deployed and where.

As well as background details on what state the federation was in before the war started.

Not to mention enough background information about how much of an effect contact with the Borg and the Dominion changed Federation military policy and designs.

 

[Rojixus]

Yesterday's Enterprise is more or less definitive in who would prevail (the Klingons). You may not like it, but you cannot dismiss it.

And yet the DS9 Federation/Klingon war says otherwise.

Did it? The Federation-Klingon War lasted less than a year. Make it last 20 years and you just might get a repeat of the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline. I'm more inclined to go with Yesterday's Enterprise to see how a hypothetical, full-scale war between the Klingons and Federation would go.

Not to mention background details on what state the federation was in before the war started.

It makes little difference what state the Federation was in before the war started. Although if the war managed to last 20 years, the Federation and Klingons might have been evenly matched at first. After two decades of war, the Federation might have been worn down to where it just couldn't fight anymore. Just like in the Peloponnesian War between democratic Athens and militaristic Sparta (Sparta won of course).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yesterday's Enterprise is more or less definitive in who would prevail (the Klingons). You may not like it, but you cannot dismiss it.

And yet the DS9 Federation/Klingon war says otherwise.

Did it? The Federation-Klingon War lasted less than a year. Make it last 20 years and you just might get a repeat of the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline. I'm more inclined to go with Yesterday's Enterprise to see how a hypothetical, full-scale war between the Klingons and Federation would go.

Except in the DS9 one the feds had more military minded ships like the Akira, Defiant, Soverign, and ect. as well a likely more Galaxys as well as whatever new weapons they developed to fight the Borg and upgrades needed to take on the Dominion, so I really things would play out the same.

 

[Rojixus]

And yet the DS9 Federation/Klingon war says otherwise.

Did it? The Federation-Klingon War lasted less than a year. Make it last 20 years and you just might get a repeat of the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline. I'm more inclined to go with Yesterday's Enterprise to see how a hypothetical, full-scale war between the Klingons and Federation would go.

Except in the DS9 one the feds had more military minded ships like the Akira, Defiant, Soverign, and ect. as well a likely more Galaxys as well as whatever new weapons they developed to fight the Borg and upgrades needed to take on the Dominion, so I really things would play out the same.

How do you know the Federation didn't have more militaristic ships in Yesterday's Enterprise? The only Federation ships were the Enterprises. No other ship classes were mentioned. We already know the Galaxy-class was more combat-oriented than the main timeline.