Starfleet technology: who gets access to what and when?

[Timo]

The one thing Starfleet obviously can influence is whether its own proprietary designs leak out to the civilian world. If the civilians buy from Klingons, then that's it - but it's not reason enough to give up on limiting access to Starfleet material.

In that respect it's noteworthy that civilians are not denied the use of personal weapons on par with Starfleet ones, including weapon types used by Starfleet itself. It sounds like a general policy regarding personal weapons more than anything else, even if it was dictated by practical concerns rather than by the UFP President being named Heston. TR-116 is a major exception to that, yet not a policy reversal as far as we can tell. Although we really can't, because civilians from that point on are considered criminals and terrorists anyway, and their bearing arms has little effect on that either way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Maybe it has to do with whether it's experimental and therefore limitations and abilities are unproven. If you know what can happen, you can stand on "don't say I didn't warn you."

But if something is top secret/highly experimental/intellectual property of a suspicious nature? Restrictions abound....

 

[Blamo]

Starfleet tech would be a few decades ahead of civilian tech. Maybe even close to 50 years for some equipment like warp drive. I suspect the warp five engine didn't get into civilian hands for a decade or so after Enterprise.

Federation civilian equipment, like transporters and replicators, would probably have a lot of built in restrictions to prevent misuse. Heck, the equipment on the Enterprise had restrictions preventing misuse.

 

[Ithekro]

I wouldn't think the warp five engines wouldn't get into civilian hands until Starfleet could prefect a warp 7 engine and some of the Romulan War era starships that have warp 5 engines start getting sold (not including Enterprise's retirement).

 

[Timo]

Why would military technology be ahead of civilian? That isn't true of today or yesterday, except perhaps in certain purely military-run countries.

The military seldom accepts cutting-edge technology, because there's no point in getting cut by it - if it's unproven or too high-strung, it won't survive in the battlefield (or in the hands of fatigued conscript mechanics working knee deep in dirt). Thus, military trucks aren't as powerful or fuel-efficient as civilian ones, military ships and boats aren't particularly fast, military handguns or rifles aren't as gee-whiz as civilian ones, and never mind military computers or communications systems.

We don't get the impression that Starfleet ships would be particularly fast - obscure things like Xepolite freighters do better. OTOH, civilians would be buying from advanced aliens left and right, while the government should be more wary. Certain Starfleet officers are impressed by the state of the art of their holograms, but their kids appear to be getting more out of theirs - and Flotter was there already when the parents were kids! And there's no limiting what the civilians do when they can buy planets of their very own and never speak to an authority again.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[retroenzo]

Well, sure, but running to the doctor/nurse for every scrape and administration of medicine makes as little sense in the future as it does now. Unless, of course, you're on a starship and it's convenient. Your medical record needs to be as complete as possible when you're serving in Starfleet.

I'm thinking that Joseph Sisko might also have an ongoing medical condition that means he has hyposprays ready to go if he needs it. I'm thinking something similar to a modern diabetic patient who would have insulin doses ready to go at a moment's notice.

 

[Ithekro]

Why would military technology be ahead of civilian? That isn't true of today or yesterday, except perhaps in certain purely military-run countries.

The military seldom accepts cutting-edge technology, because there's no point in getting cut by it - if it's unproven or too high-strung, it won't survive in the battlefield (or in the hands of fatigued conscript mechanics working knee deep in dirt). Thus, military trucks aren't as powerful or fuel-efficient as civilian ones, military ships and boats aren't particularly fast, military handguns or rifles aren't as gee-whiz as civilian ones, and never mind military computers or communications systems.

We don't get the impression that Starfleet ships would be particularly fast - obscure things like Xepolite freighters do better. OTOH, civilians would be buying from advanced aliens left and right, while the government should be more wary. Certain Starfleet officers are impressed by the state of the art of their holograms, but their kids appear to be getting more out of theirs - and Flotter was there already when the parents were kids! And there's no limiting what the civilians do when they can buy planets of their very own and never speak to an authority again.

Timo Saloniemi

It should be noted that Starfleet, in terms of technology, tends to operate like NASA. At least in the 22nd century.

 

[Tenacity]

It should be noted that Starfleet, in terms of technology, tends to operate like NASA.

Twenty year old technology, bought on a cost plus contract?

I wouldn't think the warp five engines wouldn't get into civilian hands until Starfleet could prefect a warp 7 engine

Civiian might have been buying warp five (or more) engines from alien suppliers, years before Starfleet got their first warp five indigious engine.

Starfleet legally might have to only use Human created technology, civilian wouldn't have the same restriction.

 

[Idran]

Civiian might have been buying warp five (or more) engines from alien suppliers, years before Starfleet got their first warp five indigious engine.

Starfleet legally might have to only use Human created technology, civilian wouldn't have the same restriction.

I'm not sure; it certainly seemed to be standard for the Earth Cargo Service, which was definitely a civilian organization, and there was no word about other organizations out-competing them in cargo contracts or the like; you'd think if that was legally possible, no one would bother getting cargo from the ECS what with those multi-month turnaround times. Plus, the series repeatedly presented things as Starfleet's more effective engines and technology luring people away from the ECS and disrupting Boomer culture; if other civilian organizations were using alien engines, Starfleet's advancing into the frontier areas wouldn't have been the primary cause for that, it would've already been happening well before the Warp Five Project.

Plus if it were that easy, there wouldn't have needed to be a Warp Five Project, since Starfleet could've at a minimum reverse-engineered and used what they learned to build an indigenous engine design.

And we also know from "Two Days and Two Nights" that Starfleet wasn't aware of any humans having ever gotten farther than 90 light years from Sol; if alien engines were an option then humans likely would've done that ages ago, since it was no worse than a 10 month trip out (and probably far less) which we know civilian ship crews were fine with already.

I'm not sure why they didn't (I can think of a few possibilities, but nothing I'm really confident doesn't still have massive holes in it), but it's pretty clear from what we saw on-screen that they didn't.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Federation operates on Oprahnomics.

 

[Ithekro]

Speed in space, at least for FTL drives, is an advantage that another race, even the Ferengi, wouldn't just hand over. Especially if most local powers have engines in the Warp five to Warp seven range. Best to keep the new races at Warp Two or Three so they can't really interfere with your sphere of influence (be it political, military, or trade).

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure; it certainly seemed to be standard for the Earth Cargo Service, which was definitely a civilian organization, and there was no word about other organizations out-competing them in cargo contracts or the like; you'd think if that was legally possible, no one would bother getting cargo from the ECS what with those multi-month turnaround times.

Apparently, there's a strong business case for warp two freight hauling: even a century later, in TOS "Friday's Child", Sulu is adamant that "at best, a freighter might travel warp two". Propulsion technology isn't the thing limiting the case, and is probably at most incidental in making the case.

Quite separately, there could be superfast trading ships around. Kasidy Yates could visit several star systems in a day in "For the Cause", in a cargo ship design ubiquitous in every Trek era. The ship was rather minuscule compared to the ENT container haulers, no doubt operating on a different business model, but still a container ship by design (even if we never saw the containers attached - c.f. the Batris). Traders smaller still and apparently at least equally fast have been witnessed: perhaps they trade chiefly in things stored inside isolinear chips or precious bottles?

Plus, the series repeatedly presented things as Starfleet's more effective engines and technology luring people away from the ECS and disrupting Boomer culture; if other civilian organizations were using alien engines, Starfleet's advancing into the frontier areas wouldn't have been the primary cause for that, it would've already been happening well before the Warp Five Project.

Or then Starfleet was the easy way to get aboard a warp five ship, with competition far too fierce for those wishing to be employed by Wells Farthergo warp eight courier service.

Plus if it were that easy, there wouldn't have needed to be a Warp Five Project, since Starfleet could've at a minimum reverse-engineered and used what they learned to build an indigenous engine design.

Which is probably exactly what they did.

And we also know from "Two Days and Two Nights" that Starfleet wasn't aware of any humans having ever gotten farther than 90 light years from Sol; if alien engines were an option then humans likely would've done that ages ago, since it was no worse than a 10 month trip out (and probably far less) which we know civilian ship crews were fine with already.

Even in TNG, Starfleet was ignorant of many feats of human expansion. People comfortable with purchasing a ship that goes warp eight when they twist the pulsating tentacle marked Squiggle Squiggle Burp might not see much need to ever return to Earth!

I'm not sure why they didn't (I can think of a few possibilities, but nothing I'm really confident doesn't still have massive holes in it), but it's pretty clear from what we saw on-screen that they didn't.

Onscreen, many a ship associated with Earth was actually associated with relatively advanced alien cultures, too (thanks to the VFX dept being cheapskates). It's just that we wouldn't expect fast ships to operate jointly with slow ones, except in episodes like "Twilight" where they indeed did. It's the same excuse for us never seeing other Starfleet assets in TOS besides the hero ship, really.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Plus if it were that easy, there wouldn't have needed to be a Warp Five Project

As a government project and therefor hindered by the Vulcan overlords, it might have had to of been entirely indigenously researched and developed.

Civilian and business concerns might not have had the same problems with imported technology, hell they might have bought entire ships, and not just the engine designs.[

Starfleet wasn't aware of any humans having ever gotten farther than 90 light years from Sol

That still three million cubic light-years.

Plus it often seemed that Starfleet wasn't the best when it came to possessing knowledge ... or records keeping either.

you'd think if that was legally possible, no one would bother getting cargo from the ECS what with those multi-month turnaround times

With some cargo, fast delivery isn't a priority, only that it gets there by a certain day.

I understand that the oil tankers traveling between the Persia Gulf and China are spaced so that from a ship's bridge you can see the smoke of the one in front of it and the one behind it. Doesn't matter how fast they're moving, only that they keep arriving in port.

Trade on this planet was initial built around sailing ships that moved at only a few miles per hour.

 

[Idran]

Which is probably exactly what they did.

Then there would've been no warp 5 project, it wouldn't have been associated so strongly as Archer's engine, it wouldn't have been such a significant achievement, etc. etc.

Even in TNG, Starfleet was ignorant of many feats of human expansion. People comfortable with purchasing a ship that goes warp eight when they twist the pulsating tentacle marked Squiggle Squiggle Burp might not see much need to ever return to Earth!

That still three million cubic light-years.

Plus it often seemed that Starfleet wasn't the best when it came to possessing knowledge ... or records keeping either.

Right; we know explicitly that Starfleet was wrong about that, I'm not saying that it was true. I'm saying that there would have been no prominent civilian organizations with people out further. Any humans with a ship with that capability couldn't have been part of any significant organization, because Starfleet would've known about that.

And yeah, that's a huge region, but if there were civilian organizations with warp 5-capable engines, there's no reason that the frontier would've been so close to home, because those organizations would've pushed out even further as it would have been more lucrative to do so.

I understand that the oil tankers traveling between the Persia Gulf and China are spaced so that from a ship's bridge you can see the smoke of the one in front of it and the one behind it. Doesn't matter how fast they're moving, only that they keep arriving in port.

But that's nothing at all like how the ECS was presented; it was always presented as people in the middle of nowhere with no aid, no one around, just the ship and that's it. That sort of supply chain would have been possible in the abstract, but since every single presentation of 22nd century human freight transport goes against that conception, the only way that could've been how it worked is if we literally just never saw it or its impact. Which is more of a stretch than I can believe in myself.


We can go around like this for dozens of posts, with arguments and counterarguments and countercounterarguments and so on, but I'm going to try and jump ahead of that.

What we saw could potentially support your view with enough finessing, I'll agree to that. But let's turn the chessboard around. Is what we saw what we would be likely to see given what you are positing? Is the collection of events presented in canon the collection of events that would have been likely to have been presented were this to be the case? Can we move a step beyond "is this consistent" (since with enough work you can make almost anything consistent), and move up to "is this likely"?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But that's nothing at all like how the ECS was presented; it was always presented as people in the middle of nowhere with no aid, no one around, just the ship and that's it. That sort of supply chain would have been possible in the abstract, but since every single presentation of 22nd century human freight transport goes against that conception, the only way that could've been how it worked is if we literally just never saw it or its impact. Which is more of a stretch than I can believe in myself.

Well for starters, the Earth Cargo "Service" is presented somewhat ambiguously, but there is a very STRONG implication that all of those ships are actually privately owned by the people who fly them. Which means they're not actually shipping anything between two points, they're actually loading up their holds with valuable goods, trucking out to alien worlds and trying to sell their cargo for MORE valuable goods and then head back to Earth to turn it around for profit. I'm guessing they're REGULATED by the Cargo Service (sort of the Space Trucker's Union) but each ship is actually private property in every way that counts.

There's also the fact that the neighborhood immediately around Earth isn't exactly a desert of civilization; Vulcan is only 16 light years away, a distance which a cargo ship with a decent engine could probably travel in a year or two. Sell your wares at Vulcan, then truck out to the next planet, rinse and repeat; the cargo run probably has eight or nine stops and returns to Earth only once every ten years.

This seems like a ridiculously slow timeframe until you consider context: if humanity already had a presence in deep space before the advent of warp drive (given the existence of the DY-100 and 500 class ships, this seems likely) then "ten year trade mission" is probably ALREADY standard procedure for space travelers. A pre-warp torchship might make a multi-year run from Earth to Mars, swinging by the mining colony on Ceres, offload fifty tons of ice to the uranium mines on Io, swing out to Saturn to offload the uranium at Titan (where they turn it into reactors for the colony's thermal heaters), then load up on ice from Saturn's rings and spiral back inward, through the thirsty mining stations in the Jupiter Trojan Belt to trade all of that water for platinum-rich ore, then back inwards all the way to Earth to trade the platinum for engine upgrades, hull repairs, and a new jukebox packed with 1960s classic rock.

Can we move a step beyond "is this consistent" (since with enough work you can make almost anything consistent), and move up to "is this likely"?

You're asking TIMO this question?

 

[Timo]

Then there would've been no warp 5 project, it wouldn't have been associated so strongly as Archer's engine, it wouldn't have been such a significant achievement, etc. etc.

How so? The project was all about jingoism anyway - even Archer's son thought so.

In practical terms, discovering what makes alien warp engines go would be hugely important for Earth if they could then produce warp engines of their own, supposedly at a tiny fraction of the price demanded by the aliens who know their worth well. But if Earth just boasted "Now we can make a genuine Rigelian warp five engine!", Rigelian lawyers would be making appropriate responses till the Warp Five Complex was but a smoking ruin. Of course it has to appear to be an indigenous Earth effort.

Right; we know explicitly that Starfleet was wrong about that, I'm not saying that it was true. I'm saying that there would have been no prominent civilian organizations with people out further. Any humans with a ship with that capability couldn't have been part of any significant organization, because Starfleet would've known about that.

People in possession of fast alien spacecraft would be divided rather sharply in two, I'd think: those who want to get as far away from Earth as they can, never to return - and those who want to profit from their superior drives within the context of mankind. And the latter sort thus won't be interested in flying beyond mankind: speed won't translate to range, but to time, that is, less of it spent.

And yeah, that's a huge region, but if there were civilian organizations with warp 5-capable engines, there's no reason that the frontier would've been so close to home, because those organizations would've pushed out even further as it would have been more lucrative to do so.

It doesn't appear as if there would be space for them to do that, though. Every planet out there is already taken, near and far: it's impossible to find a Class M colony site closer than Terra Nova, say, yet we don't hear of human colonies farther out, either. There's no power vacuum there for mankind to expand into: it has to shoulder its way in, and for that it needs the government's warships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

As some point all those random lost colonies found by one Enterprise or another in the 23rd and 24th centuries left Earth. There were records of them leaving, but not of them surviving. Most would have been before the founding of the Federation, perhaps even before the founding of Starfleet, and thus still limited to Warp 2.

There was also the Enterprise (XCV-330), which looks like it was an attempt to use Vulcan style warp drives sometime prior to 2143. That or it was some sort of pre-warp exploration probe (as it was in the FASA timeline. Going to Alpha Centauri before the invention of Warp Drive, but arriving back after the first warp engines were being installed on Earth ships)

 

[Timo]

Many an early expedition could indeed have left at sublight. Khan shows and tells us that this could happen in secrecy - and it needn't take supermen, as Khan would actually be disadvantaged there in terms of resources and stealth, what with being hunted and all.

OTOH, other expeditions could have left at high warp, selling their souls or whatever to advanced aliens to pay for the ride. Others would have fallen victim to those ship-displacing phenomena that riddled the Sol system at the time (perhaps advanced aliens prey on such primitive neighborhoods until the locals achieve regular contact with the rest of the universe?). And a "warp two engine" could be one that can do warp fiveish, but has high odds of blowing up if sustaining anything past 2.0, just like Kirk's warp eight ship could well do more than warp 14; some colonists might be willing to take risks there.

Certainly we have our share of onscreen colonies founded remarkably far out, including the ancient Terra Ten. And we hear of continuing diversity of means: by the 2210s, there would be Earth access to warp five propulsion, yet the colonists in Harry Kim's story traveled in a sleeper ship.

It would be folly to assume an "Earth infrastructure" on basis of these examples, though. Space in Trek isn't government business, or even governed by business. It's a lifestyle choice for space Hippies or astro-Nazis or anything in between. Once discovered, warp actually appears dirt cheap and capable of being abused in numerous surprising ways. What the government or the business does with the technology may be very different from what unrepresentative outlier adventurers do with it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Idran]

it's impossible to find a Class M colony site closer than Terra Nova, say

(except Alpha Centauri)

, yet we don't hear of human colonies farther out, either

Vega colony? It's a whole 5 light years further.

Besides that one, though, we so rarely hear about distance of settlements or associations to real-life stars that give us a clue in general. If you accept Star Charts, we've also got Deneva Colony on Kappa Fornacis III, 72 ly from Sol.

Besides, even ignoring the problem of Alpha Centauri for a second, we still don't know from "Terra Nova" that Terra Nova was the closest M-class world. We just know that it was a close M-class world. There might've been other concerns why it was chosen first alongside its proximity to Earth.

And besides, if it was that crowded around Sol, it would've taken longer to find a suitable site. The way the backstory was presented, it certainly sounded like they got Terra Nova almost immediately: it was framed as them starting to look for a site for an extrasolar colony in 2069, finding a site the very same year, and putting together a colonial expedition nearly right away.

 

[Timo]

(except Alpha Centauri)

The ENT episode establishes that Alpha Centauri was not an option for a colony site. So presumably she wasn't Class M, and would only be colonized after the easier options had been used up. Heck, Mars was only colonized after Terra Nova!

Vega colony? It's a whole 5 light years further.

Not in ENT/the 22nd century/the pre-warp-5-era, which is the subject matter here. It's downright disappointing how ENT completely avoided mention of human colonies other than minor Sol system settlements...

Besides that one, though, we so rarely hear about distance of settlements or associations to real-life stars that give us a clue in general. If you accept Star Charts, we've also got Deneva Colony on Kappa Fornacis III, 72 ly from Sol.

...Founded over a hundred years before the relevant TOS episode, so it's a borderline case for inclusion, yes. Too bad it got no mention in ENT. But it was supposed to be a freight hub, so we could posthumously tie it together with the Boomer phenomenon somehow. All the better then that it's indicated to have lost that status by the time of the episode: freighters in TOS still move at warp two, but Boomers are gone, presumably taking the need for hubworlds ("last chance saloons" of some sort?) with them.

Besides, even ignoring the problem of Alpha Centauri for a second, we still don't know from "Terra Nova" that Terra Nova was the closest M-class world. We just know that it was a close M-class world. There might've been other concerns why it was chosen first alongside its proximity to Earth.

I can't really agree. It's specifically said that the qualification prompting the mission was "When they found an Earth-like planet less than 20 ly away". Not "When they found yet another Earth-like planet less than 20 ly away, this time complete with palm trees" or "When they found an Earth-like planet less than 20 ly away, then found five others but had already decided upon Terra Nova".

Sure, there may have been other Class M planets even closer to Earth, but the clear indication is that those were not available, for whatever reason (presumably because others had dibs and Earth was the wimpiest kid on the yard).

Timo Saloniemi