Starfleet Procurement Policy Draft
- Thread starter Nob Akimoto
- Start date
Fusion, particularly as it's described in ST is very safe, pretty energy dense and gives you nice cheap fuel. The only real limitation appears to be size. You need a LOT of fusion generators to match the peak output of a warp core. (Sustained output for the E-D's fusion generators are probably about 240TW, which compares rather favorably for most estimates of its warp core output in the ~1100 TW/year for 3 years range)
(This will go into detail later but...) I wager that the main thing that requires m/am warp cores is crossing peak transitional thresholds for higher warp factors. Which means that the brief high peak output of an anti-matter reaction cores are more useful for ships that required going into higher warp realms like proper starships.
Everyone else (especially at lower tonnage) is probably happy with something that can sustain warp 6ish until the heat death of the universe, assuming you have enough deuterium.
Also in the episode "The Jem'hadar", it's actually interesting how well the runabouts held up in combat against the bug ships. The trio of DS9 runabouts seemed able to distract at least one of the bug ships. Ultimately it didn't save Odyssey, but given the massive pounding the much much larger ship got, it's still impressive nonetheless that all 3 of them survived without any crippling damage. Which suggests relatively good protection, maneuverability and all around performance even if their overall output isn't all that impressive.
(This will go into detail later but...) I wager that the main thing that requires m/am warp cores is crossing peak transitional thresholds for higher warp factors. Which means that the brief high peak output of an anti-matter reaction cores are more useful for ships that required going into higher warp realms like proper starships.
Everyone else (especially at lower tonnage) is probably happy with something that can sustain warp 6ish until the heat death of the universe, assuming you have enough deuterium.
Also in the episode "The Jem'hadar", it's actually interesting how well the runabouts held up in combat against the bug ships. The trio of DS9 runabouts seemed able to distract at least one of the bug ships. Ultimately it didn't save Odyssey, but given the massive pounding the much much larger ship got, it's still impressive nonetheless that all 3 of them survived without any crippling damage. Which suggests relatively good protection, maneuverability and all around performance even if their overall output isn't all that impressive.
Here we go again...
Alright, sorry about this, but I have some nitpicks.
Why did T'Pragh serve 4 terms as the UFP President? If 3 terms were considered unprecedented?
Also the end years of the wars seem strange, as the Tzenkethi War ended before '64 and the Cardassian one had the ceasefire in '66 and a peace treaty in '70?
Why did T'Pragh serve 4 terms as the UFP President? If 3 terms were considered unprecedented?
Also the end years of the wars seem strange, as the Tzenkethi War ended before '64 and the Cardassian one had the ceasefire in '66 and a peace treaty in '70?
No need to apologize. Nitpicks are always appreciated.
T'Pragh's term ended in 2357 (at least in this text). I'm aware that Memory Beta suggests she served until 2365, but that's conjecture based on the fact that Amitra served one term from 2365 - 2369.
Ergo I assumed she served in the 2350s, starting with the 2348 electoral cycle and ending with the 2356 cycle. (Meaning she left office in 2357) This was predicated on: She was an admiral in the 2280s-2290s, therefore was probably already a fairly older Vulcan. And that she was dead by 2380, which unless she went back to active service and died in the Dominion War, would probably mean she died of natural causes. Given Vulcan lifespans I don't think it was likely that someone would serve their presidential terms as a Vulcan when they were within a decade of dying. That seemed...illogical. Actuarial realities of remaining lifespan etc. are probably more than clear in the 24th century, and in a system with a loose line of succession like the Federation's, it doesn't seem likely she'd choose a time period where she was likely to die to be president.
So far as I'm aware, the only reference to the Tzenkethi War being over by 2364 is Will Riker's line in Orion's Hounds which I assumed to have been the end of the Federation's "shock and awe" offensive. 2365 was a convenient point for the actual treaty ratification, but that might as you say, need revising.
For the Cardassian Conflict, I assumed 2368ish was when the final treaty terms were agreed t and the actual treaty ratified once Jaresh-Inyo took office (and after the McAllistair Nebula incident). I may simply just move it to 2366 for the cease fire, since that serves the narrative fine.
T'Pragh's term ended in 2357 (at least in this text). I'm aware that Memory Beta suggests she served until 2365, but that's conjecture based on the fact that Amitra served one term from 2365 - 2369.
Ergo I assumed she served in the 2350s, starting with the 2348 electoral cycle and ending with the 2356 cycle. (Meaning she left office in 2357) This was predicated on: She was an admiral in the 2280s-2290s, therefore was probably already a fairly older Vulcan. And that she was dead by 2380, which unless she went back to active service and died in the Dominion War, would probably mean she died of natural causes. Given Vulcan lifespans I don't think it was likely that someone would serve their presidential terms as a Vulcan when they were within a decade of dying. That seemed...illogical. Actuarial realities of remaining lifespan etc. are probably more than clear in the 24th century, and in a system with a loose line of succession like the Federation's, it doesn't seem likely she'd choose a time period where she was likely to die to be president.
So far as I'm aware, the only reference to the Tzenkethi War being over by 2364 is Will Riker's line in Orion's Hounds which I assumed to have been the end of the Federation's "shock and awe" offensive. 2365 was a convenient point for the actual treaty ratification, but that might as you say, need revising.
For the Cardassian Conflict, I assumed 2368ish was when the final treaty terms were agreed t and the actual treaty ratified once Jaresh-Inyo took office (and after the McAllistair Nebula incident). I may simply just move it to 2366 for the cease fire, since that serves the narrative fine.
Actually, it is the other way around. We know that she served during the Tzenkethi War, for a fact - at least as far as we take facts.
If we take that the war was in the early 60s that would mean that she served the 2361-2365 term.
Of course if the war started in the late 50s she could have served the preceeding term.
As to her age, she could be what 70, 80, 90 as a admiral in 2290s, that would leave her still healthy enough during the mid-late 24th century. But apparently, she answered to Vulcan High Command, so who knows how fast a Vulcan rises to admiralty.
I take your point.
I checked the Articles of the Federation and yes the Tzenkethi War was over in 2365, but that is if we use integer years and the dangerously round 15 years before 2380.
Also the '64-'65 distinction can be only because of ceasefire/peace treaty.
Well, just took a look at my copy of Articles again. The Appendix tells us that Ra-ghorateii actually served 3 terms, and took over after the special election to replace Roth in 2288. So him being in office from 2289 - 2300 is correct.
Sulu being President is from IIRC The Return, but that was the only place where it was claimed 3 presidential terms was unprecedented. That can't be the case if Ra-ghorateii served 3 terms, unless the lack of precedent means that there wasn't anyone who had won 3 standard elections in a row rather than 1 special election (even if for a mostly full term) and 2 follow up elections.
Also "unprecedented" was as of the time Sulu took office (2330s). Which means by the 2350s it might have become something of a de facto term limit. So there's nothing preventing T'Pragh from serving till 2364.
OTOH, Amitra being a pandrilite, I have no idea what her species' average lifespan is like. If T'Pragh served 3 terms, it would mean she was a cabinet minister for 20 years. Which seems like a really long time to be a cabinet minister. (OTOH if she was the equivalent of the Secretary of State she might have thus wielded sufficient diplomatic leverage to actually push through the end of the Tzenkethi, Talarian and Cardassian conflicts).
Also she's still alive circa 2380...
Re the Tzenkethi War.
My timeline is definitely off.
Dr. Emmanueli thinks about not having spoken to her children in 15 years. She became estranged from her children because they believed she'd lied to them about dying. She was held by the Tzenkethi for 4 years, some of which was after the conflict ended. Which means the Tzenkethi War could have ended anywhere from 16 - 20 years prior to 2380. (The time when she was declared dead is described as "after the Armistice" though so it might be before a final peace treaty.)
At the same time, Sisko's experiences under Leyton on Okinawa took place sometime after 2360 from the events if Catalyst of Sorrows are to be believed.
A Singular Destiny says Sonek Pran wrote his monograph in 2351 and T'Pragh brought him to the Palais to discuss it at the time. Sonek also describes his service to the Federation government as having spanned 3 decades as of 2381. So it seems pretty clear T'Pragh was in office in the early 2350s. Moreover he also served as an adviser to Jaresh-Inyo and Amitra, as well as one more unnamed President (Esperanza notes 3 other presidents other than T'Pragh kept consulting Sonek and since Zife cold-shouldered him, there's someone other than our named presidents in there).
One fudge may be that Bacco describes there being multiple wars with the Tzenkethi (meaning the Tzenkethi might have tried to attack the evil empire several times during T'Pragh Administration, but it was only during a successor admin where Starfleet decided enough was enough). But I will have to revise and resubmit later on this chapter.
Pah!
Sulu being President is from IIRC The Return, but that was the only place where it was claimed 3 presidential terms was unprecedented. That can't be the case if Ra-ghorateii served 3 terms, unless the lack of precedent means that there wasn't anyone who had won 3 standard elections in a row rather than 1 special election (even if for a mostly full term) and 2 follow up elections.
Also "unprecedented" was as of the time Sulu took office (2330s). Which means by the 2350s it might have become something of a de facto term limit. So there's nothing preventing T'Pragh from serving till 2364.
OTOH, Amitra being a pandrilite, I have no idea what her species' average lifespan is like. If T'Pragh served 3 terms, it would mean she was a cabinet minister for 20 years. Which seems like a really long time to be a cabinet minister. (OTOH if she was the equivalent of the Secretary of State she might have thus wielded sufficient diplomatic leverage to actually push through the end of the Tzenkethi, Talarian and Cardassian conflicts).
Also she's still alive circa 2380...
Re the Tzenkethi War.
My timeline is definitely off.
Dr. Emmanueli thinks about not having spoken to her children in 15 years. She became estranged from her children because they believed she'd lied to them about dying. She was held by the Tzenkethi for 4 years, some of which was after the conflict ended. Which means the Tzenkethi War could have ended anywhere from 16 - 20 years prior to 2380. (The time when she was declared dead is described as "after the Armistice" though so it might be before a final peace treaty.)
At the same time, Sisko's experiences under Leyton on Okinawa took place sometime after 2360 from the events if Catalyst of Sorrows are to be believed.
A Singular Destiny says Sonek Pran wrote his monograph in 2351 and T'Pragh brought him to the Palais to discuss it at the time. Sonek also describes his service to the Federation government as having spanned 3 decades as of 2381. So it seems pretty clear T'Pragh was in office in the early 2350s. Moreover he also served as an adviser to Jaresh-Inyo and Amitra, as well as one more unnamed President (Esperanza notes 3 other presidents other than T'Pragh kept consulting Sonek and since Zife cold-shouldered him, there's someone other than our named presidents in there).
One fudge may be that Bacco describes there being multiple wars with the Tzenkethi (meaning the Tzenkethi might have tried to attack the evil empire several times during T'Pragh Administration, but it was only during a successor admin where Starfleet decided enough was enough). But I will have to revise and resubmit later on this chapter.
Pah!
A rather more treknobabble laced section.
Another side bar: Pressure hulls to trussed macrofilaments.
Another side bar: Pressure hulls to trussed macrofilaments.
Awesome! I like how you explain why Wolf 359 was so extraordinary. It also sounds like we're thinking pretty similarly about how the idea of pressure compartments gives way to your SIF truss notions.
Regarding the former, it's been my thought that, as Shaw once suggested, each of the pressure compartments would be built separately, then assembled in drydock onto the main endoskeleton and the hull built around it, essentially creating a double hull both where compartments meet and around the ship's exterior where the outer hull covers the inner hulls of the compartments. (This would be what could make crazy refits like the Enterprise refit of TMP even plausible.) Unless I read incorrectly, I believe you think roughly the same.
Regarding the SIF truss model, it's my belief based on what's stated in the TNG TM that the exterior hull basically forms an exoskeleton around hull framing members, with all decks and compartments "hanging" inside, rather than being built around an endoskeleton. I should think one of the advantages of this would be a greater degree of hull flexibility and an ability to resist shocks better than the previous generation of ships.
Regarding newer ships being built using the new technology, is it your thought that these ships would completely abandon the hull pressure compartment model and essentially have completely adaptable interiors, or would still retain a pressure compartment design but be augmented by truss SIF fields?
Regarding the former, it's been my thought that, as Shaw once suggested, each of the pressure compartments would be built separately, then assembled in drydock onto the main endoskeleton and the hull built around it, essentially creating a double hull both where compartments meet and around the ship's exterior where the outer hull covers the inner hulls of the compartments. (This would be what could make crazy refits like the Enterprise refit of TMP even plausible.) Unless I read incorrectly, I believe you think roughly the same.
Regarding the SIF truss model, it's my belief based on what's stated in the TNG TM that the exterior hull basically forms an exoskeleton around hull framing members, with all decks and compartments "hanging" inside, rather than being built around an endoskeleton. I should think one of the advantages of this would be a greater degree of hull flexibility and an ability to resist shocks better than the previous generation of ships.
Regarding newer ships being built using the new technology, is it your thought that these ships would completely abandon the hull pressure compartment model and essentially have completely adaptable interiors, or would still retain a pressure compartment design but be augmented by truss SIF fields?
You've read it correctly. Essentially the problem supposedly in older 2270s refit ships by the 2280s is that the structural stresses on the skeleton were causing problems with compression and structural frames. Hence putting trussed bracings in the pressure compartments is meant to help relieve some of that pressure.
Your interpretation of the trussed macrofilament model is also more or less correct, though the TNGTM also suggests the frames are then welded with the outer hull members into a combined stress hull with the interior being suspended by a separate lattice work that has substantial shock flexibility.
Using an automobile comparison, one might consider the old system the ancient American loved body on frame construction and the newer system being a semi-monocoque design.
I'm a little torn on this one. I think this would be a gradual evolution, but that a Miranda constructed in 2310 vs 2330, the latter would no longer be using the hull compartment model. The interiors we see of TNG/DS9 era TMP design ships suggest that these have interior commonality with modern Federation ships. (See: Saratoga from "The Emissary" or albeit non-canon, the Righteous from "Star Trek: Borg")
Enterprise-B had somewhat higher internal volume than the base Excelsior from what I remember. It was in the order of around 900,000 m³ last I remember.
Cool, glad I was on the same page there.
Ahh, the car comparison makes it perfectly clear. I was thinking that in TOS the compartments and skeleton would be of equal importance to the hull and skeleton in terms of structural strength, but that for TNG the hull and attached frame would be far more important - freeing up the internal arrangement to be whatever the designers wanted it to be without having to cram everything into compartments.
Yeah, that's along the lines of what I thought... at a certain point it just doesn't make sense to rebuild the old designs to me, though, if you're essentially redesigning them.
I'm also rather torn about just how useful even a redesigned Miranda would actually be. The Saratoga seemed to have accomodations for family and has new tech, but I wonder just how many crew she actually had aboard? Did she have a small operational crew, similar to but larger than that of the Lantree, as a result of automation, thereby allowing her to carry families and other civilians? And if so, was she special, or was this par for the course?
I guess what I'm thinking is that these ships might have been able to perform many of the same duties they did in the 23rd century, albeit with less crew and more room for ammenities. So most of the ones we see in the Dominion War are the equivalent of Starfleet birds of prey, with one or two dozen crew aboard.
It's still a bit hard for me to imagine Starfleet building any more Mirandas, even with the new tech and circumstances you've described, after 2350. Maybe even after 2340.
Well, for comparison's sake, a modern ship the same payload capacity of the Miranda is actually the Sabre, which is a fair bit shorter with a crew complement in the 50ish range. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a Miranda's modern complement to be pretty small, with a greater proportion of civilian specialists and the like than in the 23rd century.
I think the reuse of older designs is mostly an artifact of industrial processes predating industrial replication. Essentially it was easier to make hull frames and outer hulls in a certain shape, and the parts to do that with Miranda or Excelsior parts was comparatively easier than starting over from scratch. This would make more sense, too, if the majority of ships or hulls were built in civilian yards who might not have the latitude in operating costs to switch between "patterns" willy nilly. To some extent I even think some of the wilder ship designs we've seen post-CGI era are basically made that way because the shipyards designing them were recycling hull component shapes that were easy for their replicators or fabricators to make.
So when Starfleet gave away a ton of its own old shipyards/drydocks/fabricators to civilian contractors in favor of building brand new ones, you'd then make some inertia for the smaller contractors to just keep using them and find ways of updating the internals.
In fact, I'm somewhat inclined to argue that's how something like Lakota came about. A proof of concept of modernizing Excelsior hulls and allow reusing of facilities/tools that were used on it. (And Leyton using a smaller, out of the way dockyard owned by a small company would make it easier for him to get away with doing it in secret)
Also, Rick Sternbach in the Klingon Bird of Prey Owner's Manual makes a similar claim that the Klingons only reuse external frames or designs instead of toying with new exteriors because there's not a huge benefit for them. Instead they just build the basic hull, give it their newest engines and then hand them/sell them to the Great Houses to outfit with technology the way they see fit.
I think a similar thing happens with Starfleet ships but in reverse. Contractors build the hulls, then hand them off to Starfleet to fit out with mission gear in big, enormous starbases like Spacedock.
I think the reuse of older designs is mostly an artifact of industrial processes predating industrial replication. Essentially it was easier to make hull frames and outer hulls in a certain shape, and the parts to do that with Miranda or Excelsior parts was comparatively easier than starting over from scratch. This would make more sense, too, if the majority of ships or hulls were built in civilian yards who might not have the latitude in operating costs to switch between "patterns" willy nilly. To some extent I even think some of the wilder ship designs we've seen post-CGI era are basically made that way because the shipyards designing them were recycling hull component shapes that were easy for their replicators or fabricators to make.
So when Starfleet gave away a ton of its own old shipyards/drydocks/fabricators to civilian contractors in favor of building brand new ones, you'd then make some inertia for the smaller contractors to just keep using them and find ways of updating the internals.
In fact, I'm somewhat inclined to argue that's how something like Lakota came about. A proof of concept of modernizing Excelsior hulls and allow reusing of facilities/tools that were used on it. (And Leyton using a smaller, out of the way dockyard owned by a small company would make it easier for him to get away with doing it in secret)
Also, Rick Sternbach in the Klingon Bird of Prey Owner's Manual makes a similar claim that the Klingons only reuse external frames or designs instead of toying with new exteriors because there's not a huge benefit for them. Instead they just build the basic hull, give it their newest engines and then hand them/sell them to the Great Houses to outfit with technology the way they see fit.
I think a similar thing happens with Starfleet ships but in reverse. Contractors build the hulls, then hand them off to Starfleet to fit out with mission gear in big, enormous starbases like Spacedock.
I just saw pictures of the NX-02 Columbia under construction and thought it looks more like the "exoskeleton with hull filled with modules approach" you, Nob Akimoto, propose for the TNG-era.
http://www.neutralzone.de/database/PreFederation/22thcentury/NXClass_Columbia02.htm
http://www.neutralzone.de/database/PreFederation/22thcentury/NXClass_Columbia02.htm
Lalalala I can't hear you!
BAD, Enterprise, BAAAD! 
Although when I think about it, this design could explain why the Enterprise was decommissioned just 10 years or so after she was launched. And remember the episode "Minefield" where their hull was so badly damaged from that little mine that they said if it would have exploded a bit further left, they would have lost the ship.
Or there was that theory that Zephram Cochrane got the design for the NX-Class from pictures of the Akira somehow. Maybe he wanted a little bit too much too soon. ^^
Although I don't believe in this explanation for the two designs being so similar.
Although when I think about it, this design could explain why the Enterprise was decommissioned just 10 years or so after she was launched. And remember the episode "Minefield" where their hull was so badly damaged from that little mine that they said if it would have exploded a bit further left, they would have lost the ship.
Or there was that theory that Zephram Cochrane got the design for the NX-Class from pictures of the Akira somehow. Maybe he wanted a little bit too much too soon. ^^
Although I don't believe in this explanation for the two designs being so similar.
The thing is this exterior is kind of belied by the fact that Enterprise ship interiors actually look a bit more like submarine compartments than anything else, and have what appear to be loadbearing structures in the corridors. (The round thingies between each partition, I think are actually loadbearing arches of some sort)
So maybe the pressure hull exterior is built to be extremely robust, but can't actually take much compression stress.
So maybe the pressure hull exterior is built to be extremely robust, but can't actually take much compression stress.
New side-bar. Warp nacelle design and field configuration.
Credit: Timo Saloniemi on the "GN" series nacelle name.
Credit: Timo Saloniemi on the "GN" series nacelle name.
