Yes, okay, I'm applying real world logic to Star Trek. Probably not canon, I know.
Starfleet needed the Klingon war to happen
- Thread starter Groppler Zorn
- Start date
That reply is perfect haha!
You do realize that this song is about human wars fought on Earth right? Hypothetical war with an alien species is a whole different ballgame. Fighting for the planet as opposed to fighting for political and economic control over a slice of the planet. There is no common goals for species in space. There are no common genes. The ethics are different. That's what makes sci-fi fun.They're not freakin' Romulans to need to "test their mettle" every few centuries...
Wrong.
He're some remedial education in the form of a song:
there a show that disagrees with you pretty fundamentally there. It's called Star Track or something.
Never heard of it. Sounds stupid. I mean, who would watch Hollywood stars running on a track. They're not going anywhere. They should Trek somewhere.
/s
Speaking of false premises, I think the idea that "Starfleet did nothing about the Klingons until Burnham conveniently forced their hand" is among those.
It's not as if the Klingons needed any "doing". Apparently, they weren't conquering UFP worlds or slaughtering UFP citizens or anything. Apparently, Archer and NX-01 had somehow defeated them some time after ENT (Cornwell says they famously walked on Qo'nos less than a century before the events of DSC), or at least they were effectively dealt with. The same as with the Romulans, really. Why bother fighting them if they don't start any fights?
It would be different had DSC somehow wanted to imply Starfleet was out of practice with war in general. But we know how unlikely that is. Carol Marcus says Starfleet has kept the peace for a century, in hindsight referring to e.g. them walloping the Klingons in DSC - "keeping the peace" means winning wars. And there's always somebody for the UFP to fight. For all we know, Georgiou got her fame from battling the evil Nobodians in the 2240s, which is why she so eagerly wants to try out peaceful solutions.
Timo Saloniemi
It's not as if the Klingons needed any "doing". Apparently, they weren't conquering UFP worlds or slaughtering UFP citizens or anything. Apparently, Archer and NX-01 had somehow defeated them some time after ENT (Cornwell says they famously walked on Qo'nos less than a century before the events of DSC), or at least they were effectively dealt with. The same as with the Romulans, really. Why bother fighting them if they don't start any fights?
It would be different had DSC somehow wanted to imply Starfleet was out of practice with war in general. But we know how unlikely that is. Carol Marcus says Starfleet has kept the peace for a century, in hindsight referring to e.g. them walloping the Klingons in DSC - "keeping the peace" means winning wars. And there's always somebody for the UFP to fight. For all we know, Georgiou got her fame from battling the evil Nobodians in the 2240s, which is why she so eagerly wants to try out peaceful solutions.
Timo Saloniemi
I got the sense that they were trying to reference the events of “broken bow” here rather than implying that archer defeated the Klingons - unless they mean he defeated them after the augment virus situation?
That was the feeling I got from “Vulcan hello” and that starfleet were essentially complacent - but... (see below)
This is a good point - just because they’ve not been fighting the Klingons doesn’t mean they’ve not been fighting the Krill or the Shatnerians or the Kree this whole time so they’re militaristic as frick by the time of the battle at the binaries.
Technically, Cornwall says "...will be the first to visit this inhospitable planet since Captain Archer and the crew of the Enterprise NX-01, nearly 100 years ago."
They're just referring to the events portrayed in ST: Enterprise
Also, someone earlier says "No Starfleet officer has set foot there in this century."
They're just referring to the events portrayed in ST: Enterprise
Also, someone earlier says "No Starfleet officer has set foot there in this century."
Yeh that’s how I interpreted that line. Archer goes there at the end of “broken bow” when he delivers Klaang to the high council. IIRC I don’t think they go back to Qo’Nos in ENT but I may not RC...
Please tell me that isn't actual dialogue from an episode?
For a unique experience, try reading through the transcripts of some of the episodes. I looked at episodes 10-12, and 15. It feels similar to reading through a star wars screenplay.
It is. Even though I'm coming at it from the opposite direction of you, I cringed at it too.
The pompous wording is IMHO an excellent reason to take Cornwell on her word - the ENT heroes did something really memorable there on the surface, thus something unlike any of their onscreen visits, which goes well with the "less-than" bit that establishes the event as post-ENT.
Perhaps they earned mankind an eternal ban on surface access? Perhaps their names live in infamy, explaining the lack of references in "later" Trek. (Riker being a fan might be like somebody today cheering for Hans-Ulrich Rudel for his excellent piloting while fully acknowledging that the guy's a blemish in any history book.)
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps they earned mankind an eternal ban on surface access? Perhaps their names live in infamy, explaining the lack of references in "later" Trek. (Riker being a fan might be like somebody today cheering for Hans-Ulrich Rudel for his excellent piloting while fully acknowledging that the guy's a blemish in any history book.)
Timo Saloniemi
She doesn't say "less than." And if Archer had additional notable visits, then referencing them a century later would require a qualifier, to differentiate, or she's simply referring to all his visits collectively, including the one we saw.
...Hmh? Surely "nearly a century ago" must be taken to mean "less than". That is, it can't mean "approximately" which could in turn be taken as "more than" - nobody uses "nearly" that way.
That Archer (and the crew and the ship) gets a mention at all seems to establish that they did something grand. That this happened "nearly" 100 years before DSC S1 seems to establish it happened after 2156. That it involved "the crew of NX-01" seems to establish it happened before 2161 when NX-01 supposedly ceased to be a thing, although in theory the crew could go there without the ship if they got stuck in some sort of career limbo that glues them together, TOS movies style.
We can fight "seems" at every step, but why should we? A remarkable visit after 2156 makes the best sense and negates the need to consider any unremarkable visits (such as the onscreen ones), or to postulate that nobody else ever visited.
There is nothing collective about the Admiral's comment anyway. She specifically speaks of the ending of a thing - the very last visit to the surface of Qo'noS, an automatically unique event. Is it remarkable for additional reasons? Well, we would like it to be, so that it could explain WHY it was the very last. It IS odd for nobody (legit) from Earth to go there for a century. And Archer is just the type to earn mankind the bouncer's ire.
Timo Saloniemi
That Archer (and the crew and the ship) gets a mention at all seems to establish that they did something grand. That this happened "nearly" 100 years before DSC S1 seems to establish it happened after 2156. That it involved "the crew of NX-01" seems to establish it happened before 2161 when NX-01 supposedly ceased to be a thing, although in theory the crew could go there without the ship if they got stuck in some sort of career limbo that glues them together, TOS movies style.
We can fight "seems" at every step, but why should we? A remarkable visit after 2156 makes the best sense and negates the need to consider any unremarkable visits (such as the onscreen ones), or to postulate that nobody else ever visited.
There is nothing collective about the Admiral's comment anyway. She specifically speaks of the ending of a thing - the very last visit to the surface of Qo'noS, an automatically unique event. Is it remarkable for additional reasons? Well, we would like it to be, so that it could explain WHY it was the very last. It IS odd for nobody (legit) from Earth to go there for a century. And Archer is just the type to earn mankind the bouncer's ire.
Timo Saloniemi
In one of the Enterprise novels Archer goes to Qo'noS during the Romulan War to ask for help, but the Klingons deny it and the Enterprise leaves again. No incident or anything of larger scale happens, IIRC.
Maybe they’re setting up a Scott Bakula cameo in a flashback to the Enterprise era?
Nah, I don't think so. Then again, I didn't see the MU twist or the Enterprise in the finale coming, so we'll probably get an Archer cameo next season.
