"Starfleet is not a military organization" (Peak Performance)

[Lance]

I do think Picard is probably making a point, in which he's really saying "Okay, yes, we *are* a military organisation, but haven't we outgrown all this battleships stuff?"

That would be like the United States saying, "haven't we outgrown having a military?". The problem with Star Trek is that it creates an attitude toward military defense that is not in line with the universe they have created, with Klingons and Romulans and Cardassians and Borg and Dominion. It's a galaxy that is very much like our own world with so many nations willing to wage war against their neighbors. It would be one thing if the galaxy in general was as 'utopian' as our Earth, but it clearly is not.

The Starfleet model simply does not fit for the kind of defense the Federation needs with all the threats in the galaxy.

I don't disagree, and I actually think if that's the point Picard was trying to make, then he's clearly wrong. The Federation was supposedly in a state of war with the Cardassians in the first two seasons of TNG anyway, so really Picard might have the moral high-ground, but you have to wonder what rock he'd been hiding under.

 

[T'Girl]

And you never see hard-line military types in Star Trek shows either

Sure you do, in fact it's Picard who seems the odd one out of the standard Starfleet mix.

Starfleet is the executive branch of the Federation

More the uniformed armed forces.

nonetheless not comparable to a contemporary military

It's more the modern military than any other modern entity comparison, but as has been pointed out there is a strong similarity to the "age of sail."

unlike real world militaries Starfleet has no imperial ambitions

That ambition is something that usually comes from civilian government policies, and not directly from a military.

And while I've never seen it myself, some posters on this board through the years have stated/suggested that the Federation Council is the sole authority body in the Federation, and the member worlds are basically subordinate dependencies of the centrally controlled sovereign state.

Imperial.

... and not the brainwashing that real-world militaries call discipline

This view of the military is a incredible misconception, where are you getting this?

"Brainwashing?"

Since the Romulan War the situation between the UFP and the Romulan Empire is an uneasy peace, occasionally disturbed by border skirmishes.

Actually it sound like it was more of a completely calm uneventful peace for the vast majority of the time. Following the war there was not a peep out of the Romulans for a century, then a very brief period of activity, follow by multiple decades of peaceful isolation from the Romulans.

The presence of heavily armed military starships on the Federation side of the border ensured this peace. Their not being "pure warships" was irrelevant, as long as these "impure" warships could defeat the Empire's military in a stand-up fight.

 

[JD5000]

And you never see hard-line military types in Star Trek shows either

Sure you do, in fact it's Picard who seems the odd one out of the standard Starfleet mix.

Ross, Nechayev, Leyton, Hayes (F), Hayes (M), Sisko...the list is fairly extensive of Starfleet characters with military bearing. Agreed, Picard is the odd one out among his peers.

Starfleet is the executive branch of the Federation

More the uniformed armed forces.

It's more the modern military than any other modern entity comparison, but as has been pointed out there is a strong similarity to the "age of sail."

That ambition is something that usually comes from civilian government policies, and not directly from a military.

And while I've never seen it myself, some posters on this board through the years have stated/suggested that the Federation Council is the sole authority body in the Federation, and the member worlds are basically subordinate dependencies of the centrally controlled sovereign state.

Imperial.

I think this is comparable to the modern US political structure if this was the original poster's intent of comparison. The American military is an arm of the government's executive branch, hence the President's alternative title of 'Commander In Chief'.

... and not the brainwashing that real-world militaries call discipline

This view of the military is a incredible misconception, where are you getting this?

"Brainwashing?"

Yah, this is a prejudiced view with no factual basis. Call it opinion, don't represent it as fact.

Since the Romulan War the situation between the UFP and the Romulan Empire is an uneasy peace, occasionally disturbed by border skirmishes.

Actually it sound like it was more of a completely calm uneventful peace for the vast majority of the time. Following the war there was not a peep out of the Romulans for a century, then a very brief period of activity, follow by multiple decades of peaceful isolation from the Romulans.

The presence of heavily armed military starships on the Federation side of the border ensured this peace. Their not being "pure warships" was irrelevant, as long as these "impure" warships could defeat the Empire's military in a stand-up fight.

Knowing someone's sitting on your back doorstep looking for a chance to come on in doesn't constitute an 'easy peace'. Just cause they aren't actually knocking on the door or trying to jimmy the lock doesn't mean one should be comfortable with the presence.


Multi-multi-quote attempt, hopefully I didn't F up too many tags.

 

[DWF]

I'd certainly call Starfleet a para-military organization though. And I do understand Riker's point, battle and warfare in the TNG era was meant as the last resort after atttempts at peace had failed. Rike did come though in The Best Of Both Worlds, but in the end Voyager showed us that there's more than one way to beat the Borg and DS9 showed us that there was another way to beat the Dominion, other than sheer force of arms.

Yes but in VOY they ended up using a bio-weapon against the Borg to defeat them (Endgame) and in DSN they ended the war against the Dominion in effect by offering the hand of peace (WYLB)

And in both cases it was science that won the day not the military way,

 

[sonak]

I'd certainly call Starfleet a para-military organization though. And I do understand Riker's point, battle and warfare in the TNG era was meant as the last resort after atttempts at peace had failed. Rike did come though in The Best Of Both Worlds, but in the end Voyager showed us that there's more than one way to beat the Borg and DS9 showed us that there was another way to beat the Dominion, other than sheer force of arms.

Yes but in VOY they ended up using a bio-weapon against the Borg to defeat them (Endgame) and in DSN they ended the war against the Dominion in effect by offering the hand of peace (WYLB)

And in both cases it was science that won the day not the military way,

huh? Why are the two at odds? Scientific advances have frequently come from wars and the military.

And it was section 31, which seemed pretty militaristic to me, which developed the disease that was partially responsible for ending the war.

 

[Lance]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there are some modern day precedents for something that looks, walks and quacks like a military, but is very insistent that it is not a military:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/KaijuDefenseForce

Perhaps there were similar circumstances in Starfleet's past that saw it declassified as a 'military service' per se. At the Khitomer Accords for example? It doesn't mean they stop functioning in a way similar to before, but that their general mission statement (if you will) is geared towards distinctly less militarised objectives.

 

[Timo]

FWIW, the dedication plaques of Starfleet ships and various backstage sources make mention of separate commands or divisions called "Exploration Command" and "Defense Command". These things are not mentioned in dialogue, but it might well be that Starfleet is split in half and can pretend to operate some of its dual-purpose ships purely in an exploratory role and others purely in a defensive one (even if swapping jobs is a matter of uttering a single word of command).

Timo Saloniemi