"Starfleet is not a military organization" (Peak Performance)

[Lance]

Roddenberry used to pontificate about Starfleet being quasi-military even back in the seventies, but I do think some of that was only in retrospect. For example, at conventions he used to talk about how he never believed Starfleet would have had an 'enlisted' class, or that by the 23rd century everybody on ship would share the same kind of crew quarters rather than pairing up in bunks like in a barracks. That kind of thing. But in practical terms, TOS only sorta-kinda implied this stuff (the Meyer/Bennet movies ignored it completely). Phase II was in many ways Roddeberry's attempt to conceptually realign TOS with what his beliefs then were, and when that didn't happen he simply emigrated that through to TNG.

 

[DWF]

Roddenberry used to pontificate about Starfleet being quasi-military even back in the seventies, but I do think some of that was only in retrospect. For example, at conventions he used to talk about how he never believed Starfleet would have had an 'enlisted' class, or that by the 23rd century everybody on ship would share the same kind of crew quarters rather than pairing up in bunks like in a barracks. That kind of thing. But in practical terms, TOS only sorta-kinda implied this stuff (the Meyer/Bennet movies ignored it completely). Phase II was in many ways Roddeberry's attempt to conceptually realign TOS with what his beliefs then were, and when that didn't happen he simply emigrated that through to TNG.

And yet TUC showed us bunk beds and barrack styled crew quarters, But then the movies rarely needed to show us the crew quarters.

 

[BK613]

Roddenberry used to pontificate about Starfleet being quasi-military even back in the seventies, but I do think some of that was only in retrospect. For example, at conventions he used to talk about how he never believed Starfleet would have had an 'enlisted' class, or that by the 23rd century everybody on ship would share the same kind of crew quarters rather than pairing up in bunks like in a barracks. That kind of thing. But in practical terms, TOS only sorta-kinda implied this stuff (the Meyer/Bennet movies ignored it completely). Phase II was in many ways Roddeberry's attempt to conceptually realign TOS with what his beliefs then were, and when that didn't happen he simply emigrated that through to TNG.

From the Star Trek Writers/Directors Guide, Third Revision dated April 17, 1967:

Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel?

Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. And we avoid saluting and other annoying medieval leftovers. On the other hand, we do keep a flavor of Naval usage and terminology to help encourage believability and identification by the audience. After all, our own Navy today still retains remnants of tradition known to Nelson and Drake.

So the idea was there near the beginning.

 

[Lance]

Well there you go.

It's always been intrinsic in the format, but references to Nelson, Drake, and fictional counterparts like Hornblower, certainly would make "Starfleet is a military" (even of the 'semi' variety) very likely.

I still think the best overall interpretation is that by Picard's time, the definitions of what 'military' is have changed. Or Picard personally, as a student of history, doesn't recognise Starfleet as being analogous to the military mind (even though we might beg to differ with him about that ).

 

[jimbotron]

Nobody argues for letting the civilization die, not seriously. LaForge throws that idea to the table in order to ridicule it, and there are many takers - while Picard just sort of reminds everybody that the Prime Directive exists for a reason. The real issue causing argument there isn't what's happening to the civilization, but Data being insubordinate, and preaching to the choir about it. If anything, Data is making it more difficult for Starfleet to help the natives.

I don't really have a problem with the moral argument raised. Picard raised a similar argument in A Matter of Time, but I thought that came off much better. What I have an issue with them deciding to allow the Dremans to die, only to change their mind because of Sarjenka's final call for help, causing Picard to say:

"That whisper in the dark has become a plea. We cannot turn our backs".

It was a plea for help from the very beginning. She wouldn't be broadcasting "is anybody out there?" for just a friendly chat while her planet was destroying itself. It's like they only agreed to help because they ran out of excuses not to.

 

[T'Girl]

at conventions he used to talk about how he never believed Starfleet would have had an 'enlisted' class, or that by the 23rd century everybody on ship would share the same kind of crew quarters rather than pairing up in bunks like in a barracks.

Maybe that's one of the reasons Roddenberry didn't like the Franz Joseph blueprints of the ship, some of the crew quarters had up to four people in them.

From the Star Trek Writers/Directors Guide, Third Revision dated April 17, 1967:

For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories.

However very obviously Roddenberry didn't have a problem with a traditional military rank structure and a clearly military hierarchy of authority and command.

Or Picard personally, as a student of history, doesn't recognise Starfleet as being analogous to the military mind

Picard is the one who referred to a modern American military uniform as a "costume."

 

[section31agent]

If someone were just starting to watch Star Trek and they asked me this, I would tell them the simple answer is yes. Starfleet is the Federation's military. Rather than confuse them about Starfleet's philosophy.

But officially, Starfleet does not consider itself a military organization, just like the Japanese Self Defense Forces doesn't either. So its up to you if you want to believe that philosophy.

But in Picard's defense. He is right, kind of. Starfleet has always been meant to be the descendant of NASA, not the Navy. Their original purpose is exploration and Starfleet was created as a separate organization from Earth's existing military forces (for example, MACOs) During times of war, like the Klingon invasion of Organia or the Cardassian war, Kirk and Obrien referred to themselves as soldiers. But in peacetime, O'Brien says he's just an engineer. And when Garth called Kirk one of the greatest military commanders besides Garth himself, Kirk objected, saying he's an explorer during a times of peace.

So Starfleet (and the writers) are very much committed to its original philosophy of peaceful exploration.

But at the end of the day, Starfleet's ships are armed. Their personel are armed. They are trained in both small arms and starship combat simulations. And the most important "military" aspect of Starfleet - every member takes a oath to defend the security of the Federation.

The only exception is maybe 22nd Century Starfleet. Earth still maintained a separate military service at at time. And I dont think there was any mention of an oath that specifically required them to defend Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they only mentioned an oath to Starfleet or to obey orders, something like that.

 

[Timo]

Their original purpose is exploration

Except that apparently it isn't. Captain Archer seemed to be Starfleet's very first explorer captain, in Starfleet's very first exploration starship - yet he had attained that rank by climbing a very military-sounding rank ladder in an organization that operated at least three other types of starship already, and those were armed to the teeth!

This makes sense. What would there be to explore when Earth's earlier vessels couldn't even leave the Vulcan sphere of influence due to their insufficient range and speed? But there would be space pirates galore, other things to shoot at - and United Earth wouldn't be truly united until 2150, meaning human-vs-human wars might still be fought, now in deep space.

Basically, UE Starfleet Command was just as militant as UE Military Assault Command; both may well have had a representative at UE Joint Chiefs of Staff...

Would the UFP Starfleet be radically different from the various starfleets that merged into it in 2161 or so? Could it dedicate itself to exploration after the combat-intensive experiences of the 2150s? Or would it continue to be the naval combat arm of Earth, only now also looking after other worlds and cultures?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

But officially, Starfleet does not consider itself a military organization, just like the Japanese Self Defense Forces doesn't either. So its up to you if you want to believe that philosophy.

All personnel in the JSDF are national government "special civil servants," Inspite of that charming piece of fiction they are Japan's military, and they do in fact consider themselves to be such.

And as I suggest earlier, how many Starfleet officers think of Starfleet as the military? Admiral Ross did, Admiral Necheyev clearly does. Captain Maxwell's position was clear.

Ben Sisko arrived at DS9 right after working on a warship program.

In terms of priorities, Starfleet is a offense/defense organization first. When they're not doing that (much of the time) they employ the slack time to explore and do all the other things we see them do. But when it comes time to hurt people and break things, Starfleet drops the fluff.

 

[DWF]

Benjamin Sisko: That may be the most important thing to understand about humans. It is the unknown that defines our existence. We are constantly searching, not just for answers to our questions, but for new questions. We are explorers. We explore our lives day by day, and we explore the galaxy trying to expand the boundaries of our knowledge. And that is why I am here: not to conquer you with weapons or ideas, but to coexist and learn.

I guess nobody remembers this speech.

 

[T'Girl]

I guess nobody remembers this speech.

Yes, when Starfleet isn't doing something far more important (protecting lives, freedom, etc.) they explore, set up colonies, provide taxi service, run cargo.

Diplomacy would come before exploring too.

 

[horatio83]

Huh? How do you figure Picard? Look at your uniform, your rank insignia, the disciplined crew, military hierarchy, military traditions...and the "fleet" in Starfleet certainly isn't referring to post office trucks or taxis...what is Starfleet if not a military organization?

I know what the writers were trying to get Picard to say but wouldn't it be more apt to say that the Federation is not a militarily driven organization or something to that effect? I find it insulting for Picard to be both so out of character as to diminish the importance of battle readiness and also to flat out say Starfleet isn't a military when a blind baboon could tell you otherwise.

My cents...

Of course it makes no sense if you take it literally. But that's not the point. The point of this line and TNG in general is that although Starfleet is the executive branch of the Federation and thus encompasses military, scientific and diplomatic duties it is, at least in its idealized version which we can see on the Enterprise, nonetheless not comparable to a contemporary military.
Ample of TNG episodes deal with how blind obedience is bad, be it when the TNG crew deals with the Picard copy in Allegiance or when Picard does not reprimand Data for not having followed orders in Redemption.
The other stuff is obvious, unlike real world militaries Starfleet has no imperial ambitions, does not evade parliamentary oversight and so on (except for the stories which are about "the enemy within" like TUC or the Section 31 episodes).

In TNG we see the best of the military, hard work and discipline (I don't have to add that proper discipline is always self-discipline and not the brainwashing that real-world militaries call discipline), we see an idealized (from a left-wing, democratic perspective) version of a military.

 

[Dobian]

I've never considered Star Trek's vision of a quasi-military/exploration fleet to be realistic. If the galaxy in this "utopian" future was more friendly and there were no obvious threats, then "maybe". But the Star Trek galaxy is as full of threats as modern-day Earth. Expecting these Carnival cruise ships, many of which have families on board, to go into battle with Klingons and Romulans (usually flying solo) is a bit ridiculous. And you never see hard-line military types in Star Trek shows either, just the middle-aged leisure suit-wearing bureaucrats and generals sending their orders over the monitor. A more plausible Starfleet would have combat-only ships like the Defiant on DS9 manned by combat veterans and commandos whose only job is to, of course, fly in combat.

 

[horatio83]

Nope. Since the Romulan War the situation between the UFP and the Romulan Empire is an uneasy peace, occasionally disturbed by border skirmishes. Having pure combat ships like the Defiant patrol the Neutral Zone would a) be a waste of resources and b) make the Romulans pull more forces to the border as well or even outrightly provoke them.
Now this is just one border. You suggestion implies a giant waste of resources and a hawkish position, potentially war-causing military stance on all borders.

Thankfully the UFP is not led by hawks but by doves. Have ample of ships read that can kick the hell out of any attacker but have them also do other stuff (not Fortinbras or Horatio but Fortinbras and Horatio) while nobody messes with you. Fight when you have to but always signal that your goal is peaceful coexistence.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

If someone were just starting to watch Star Trek and they asked me this, I would tell them the simple answer is yes. Starfleet is the Federation's military. Rather than confuse them about Starfleet's philosophy.

But officially, Starfleet does not consider itself a military organization, just like the Japanese Self Defense Forces doesn't either. So its up to you if you want to believe that philosophy.

But in Picard's defense. He is right, kind of. Starfleet has always been meant to be the descendant of NASA, not the Navy. Their original purpose is exploration and Starfleet was created as a separate organization from Earth's existing military forces (for example, MACOs) During times of war, like the Klingon invasion of Organia or the Cardassian war, Kirk and Obrien referred to themselves as soldiers. But in peacetime, O'Brien says he's just an engineer. And when Garth called Kirk one of the greatest military commanders besides Garth himself, Kirk objected, saying he's an explorer during a times of peace.

This is basically THE answer.

 

[Lance]

I've had time to think about it, and I'm more convinced than ever that Picard is talking about his personal values for what he believes Starfleet is, and his hopes that it won't be compromised by the Borg threat.

The mere fact that Starfleet had commissioned the 'war game' exercise as a recognition of what a Borg incursion might represent seems to indicate that Starfleet is most certainly a military force in essence, and maybe by claiming that Starfleet is not a military, Picard is basically just being a 'conscientious objector' of sorts on principal (not that he refuses to fight, but more that he's placing his opinion, on the record, that he doesn't think this is what Starfleet should see as their primary objective).

He's probably one of many in the service who hold that view. Nevertheless, Wolf 359 probably changed everybody's mind on that. Including Picard.

 

[horatio83]

Starfleet HAS to do military duties but always WANTS to do science, exploration and diplomancy. Without the yearning to do the latter it would be an ordinary military and the UFP would more likely than not be an imperial power.

 

[Lance]

It's like I said earlier in the thread though, historically, going back to the age of sail, so-called 'military' ships always had the primary goal of protecting/expanding their empire's territorial imperitive, with a secondary (but no less important) goal of expanding our knowledge of the world. Hence why they sailed with cartographers and botanists aboard. So, the definition of 'military' has always encompassed these responsibilities of exploration.

There's nothing in there which doesn't perfectly describe Starfleet.

I do think Picard is probably making a point, in which he's really saying "Okay, yes, we *are* a military organisation, but haven't we outgrown all this battleships stuff?"

He was a captain on the Stargazer at a time when Starfleet was more 'militarily' minded, so he's probably able to make the comparison better than most.

 

[Dobian]

I do think Picard is probably making a point, in which he's really saying "Okay, yes, we *are* a military organisation, but haven't we outgrown all this battleships stuff?"

That would be like the United States saying, "haven't we outgrown having a military?". The problem with Star Trek is that it creates an attitude toward military defense that is not in line with the universe they have created, with Klingons and Romulans and Cardassians and Borg and Dominion. It's a galaxy that is very much like our own world with so many nations willing to wage war against their neighbors. It would be one thing if the galaxy in general was as "utopian" as our Earth, but it clearly is not.

The Starfleet model simply does not fit for the kind of defense the Federation needs with all the threats in the galaxy.

 

[MacLeod]

I'd certainly call Starfleet a para-military organization though. And I do understand Riker's point, battle and warfare in the TNG era was meant as the last resort after atttempts at peace had failed. Rike did come though in The Best Of Both Worlds, but in the end Voyager showed us that there's more than one way to beat the Borg and DS9 showed us that there was another way to beat the Dominion, other than sheer force of arms.

Yes but in VOY they ended up using a bio-weapon against the Borg to defeat them (Endgame) and in DSN they ended the war against the Dominion in effect by offering the hand of peace (WYLB)