Starfleet Carrier Ship
- Thread starter MatthiasRussell
- Start date
Under current military law, Spock would be the one to get courtmartialed. He was the highest ranking, he's the one that should know better.
Uhura, on the other hand, would probably be assigned to something along the lines of where they found Scotty.
Uhura, on the other hand, would probably be assigned to something along the lines of where they found Scotty.
As much as I agree with the sentiment, there does seem to be evidence that Starfleet policies are quite different. Lt. Tomlinson in "Balance of Terror" was apparently allowed to fraternize with a subordinate under his direct command up to the point of marrying her.
--Justin
We don't know the lead up to Tomlinson's and Martine's planned nuptuals, but since the captain was conducting the ceremony, we can safely assume that things went according to regulations.
Uhura essentially blackmailing Spock indicates that their relationship was definitely not within regulations.
Uhura essentially blackmailing Spock indicates that their relationship was definitely not within regulations.
Yes, but "under current military law," the situation would be clearly a no-no.
--Justin
Blackmail my ass. They BOTH knew she had earned her spot on the Enterprise by every conceivable measure. That was the point: Spock was trying to do the honorable thing and cover both of their asses so nobody could say she only got there because she was dating the science officer. Uhura's answer was "Hell with that, I earned this!"
Is there any reason to believe her performance at the academy and apparently superb linguistics and signal processing skills are deserving of anything less than the flag ship? If not, then it wouldn't have mattered whether they were lovers or mortal enemies, she's going to raise hell if she knows she isn't getting the assignment she deserves.
Except, of course, that the only people we hear from about her being "so awesome" are from her and from her boyfriend.
Can you give me any indication, whatsoever, in the context of this movie, that someone else may not have been at least as good, if not better, at their job than she was?
The fact is, Officers are COURT MARTIALED today for dating direct subordinates... and they SHOULD BE.
I can tell that you've never held a position of special responsibility or authority. That's OK... less people have today than ever have previously, so you're not exactly "rare" in that regard. But you clearly just don't get it.
There are very, very good reasons that "fraternization" is prohibited. And it is NOT for the reason that you, like so many others, seem to be assuming it is. It has very, very little to do with "appearances." That's a concern, to be sure, but it's not the main concern.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the ability to treat subordinates equally, in reality.
Can you honestly say that, if given a "command decision" where you had to send one of two subordinates to a likely "suicidal" task, you would be capable of making that choice entirely dispassionately, and sending your own girlfriend to die because she was more likely to be able to complete the mission?
THAT IS WHY FRATERNIZATION IS PROHIBITED.
The "appearances" thing is far, far less relevant than the REALITY that it's virtually impossible to divorce your emotions from your decision-making process and to make the RIGHT decision, when you've got a close, personal, emotional connection to the people you're in command of.
Yes, you didn't "get it." I hope you can see, now at least, why THOUSANDS OF YEARS worth of experience, throughout all of of military history, have lead us to the point where we, universally, prohibit those making life and death decisions about their subordinates from being personally involved with those subordinates.
Hell, even the sort of friendship Kirk and Spock share is "hazardous." I mean, can you imagine Kirk abandoning his post on the bridge in the middle of a crisis, racing to engineering, if it had been some random guy, let's say it was "Commander Greenway," who'd gone into the energizer chamber in "The Wrath of Khan" rather than Spock?
That's one point where Kate Mulgrew deserves credit, for keeping the writers at bay who kept trying to hook up Janeway and Chakotay. We may never know just how many battles she fought to maintain something resembling integrity on that show.
You make a good point, Cary. The only thing I'd add is that the problem with fraternization extends beyond the performance of the superior to the perception of inequality among the subordinates, and how that perception will impact their discipline and esprit de corps.
And the end of TWOK, dripping in melodrama, is one of the reasons I don't like that movie. Kirk leaving the bridge as the ship is on the verge of being destroyed? Wouldn't it have been more powerful if filmed in such a way that he knew his friend was dying but couldn't leave the bridge because he put his duty first? Sheesh...
And the end of TWOK, dripping in melodrama, is one of the reasons I don't like that movie. Kirk leaving the bridge as the ship is on the verge of being destroyed? Wouldn't it have been more powerful if filmed in such a way that he knew his friend was dying but couldn't leave the bridge because he put his duty first? Sheesh...
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...Which is why the "no heterosexual love affairs" rule sounds a bit hollow. There's always going to be dissimilar treatment of underlings, unless one's commanding an army of Jango Fett clones. Forbidding married couples from serving together means brushing the problem under the carpet, and is something that either may or may not be a good idea - with barely fifty years of experience on the thing (as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of years our species has been collectively whacking itself on the head with lethal objects), it's difficult to tell.
Timo Saloniemi
Verge of being destroyed?
The ship had previously gone to warp, the ship was well clear of the genesis effect, Kirk and Carol were lounging about the bridge admiring the forming planet. It's only after Kirk calls the engine room to congraduate Scotty that Kirk is asked by McCoy to hurry to the engine room.
The situation is so calm that instead of placing Commander Sulu in command of the bridge, Kirk feels confident enough to placing Lt. Saavik in charge.
Earned how? Or maybe where would be a better question, Uhura was still at the academy. She was what, an upper classman? Who spent time at night in the communications lab.
Despite her on again, off again rank of Lieutenant, Uhura was a cadet. She possessed zero field experience. She was green on the vine. Forget the Flagship, Uhura hadn't earned a spot on a shuttlecraft. Only Starfleet's short handedness forced her premature assignment to a ship.
The fact that she spontaneously wonders off the bridge to take turbo-lift rides with her Vulcan lover speaks to that.
One might also ask, who got bumped off the Enterprise to make room for Uhura? Someone must have been transfer to the ship she was originally assigned to, to fill her slot there.
You know, the person who was killed.
...Do you think Saldana's butchering of the pronunciation of "aural skills" was unintentional?
Considering it was the level-headed Spock who was blackmailed to entering Uhura, she may well have been added to the ship's roster rather than being swapped. Essentially, she got aboard only as an optional extra - much like Kirk did. On the big ship, there'd always be make-work for them; even with the full load of cadets, the Enterprise no doubt was still missing something like 65% of her personnel, and would have been hard pressed to survey a Class B world or excavate an asteroid or mount a performance of Richard III or do any of the other things a ship of her caliber is routinely expected to do.
I'd be more worried about the ship that was left without Uhura's services; some of the smaller vessels might have had tighter tolerances on personnel numbers.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm sorry about that. I was indulging in a pitcher of a particularly delicious cocktail called a "Blue Goose" and my wits were apparently a bit dimmed. I nevertheless meant what I said-- I just put it much too strongly. I don't like that damned movie and will come up with any reason to disparage it, even if I have to make it up.
Plenty of people were, which is exactly why Uhura wasn't immediately assigned to senior communications officer. OTOH, Uhura is fluent in Romulan, unlike the officer normally assigned to that position.
Used to be you could be court martialed for questioning the wisdom of the King. I'm sure they had good reasons back then too.
I get it just fine (and I have, by the way). I just plain disagree with you. Obviously it wouldn't work in TODAY'S society, but it's not overly hard to imagine social/political conditions where it would cease to be a problem.
Dude, there are very good reasons why homosexuals aren't allowed to serve openly in the military. That doesn't mean I agree with them.
Which is precisely what happened with Spock and Uhura. She wasn't asking for special treatment, but she sure as hell wasn't asking for HARSHER treatment, to be excluded from her assignment of choice.
Girlfriend, no. But my wife...
But in all honesty, yes. Because allowing myself to BE in a position of authority means having to ask people to make that kind of sacrifice. I cannot and would not accept that kind of authority knowing that I would not be willing to make that same sacrifice myself. Part of that sacrifice means watching your loved ones go off on a mission and never return; if I send ten guys into harms way and five of them die, then I'm the one who has to explain it to their families. Again, I would never put a burden on those families that wouldn't be willing to put on my own.
I tend to think that Starfleet understands this, which is why their academy testing and training seem to include a lot of character tests to see what their officers will do in that situation. In TNG, for example, when Troi was getting her bridge officer training she had to deal with a simulation that asked her to send one of her best friends to die. The obvious implication is officers are expected never to put personal feelings or attachments ahead of their duty or their mission.
Which is precisely the reason I disagree with the regulation. Human beings form relationships with ANYONE around them, especially when they're together for a long time and entrust their lives to one another. Yet we expect officers to do their duty despite those attachments and we expect them not to play favorites within members of their own units. We expect romantic relationships to be that much different, too hard to resist.
Why? Because we as a society are sexually immature and too many of us let our dicks make decisions that are better left to our brains. And once again, it is NOT difficult to imagine a society where this would no longer be a problem. Star Trek has (at least attempted) to show us an example of this.
http://www.webtender.com/db/drink/6208
The orgeat is the key. It sounds too involved to extract milk from an almond, but it really is worth it. My secret ingredient is to add about 25 crushed cherry pits to the almonds you are soaking. Some fearful souls will cry about the pits' cyanide content, but hey... you only live once.
Edit- didn't know you'd found the recipe, Cary! BTW, you don't need Grey Goose vodka. I use Crystal Head. So I guess you'd call my version a Blue Skull.
The orgeat is the key. It sounds too involved to extract milk from an almond, but it really is worth it. My secret ingredient is to add about 25 crushed cherry pits to the almonds you are soaking. Some fearful souls will cry about the pits' cyanide content, but hey... you only live once.
Edit- didn't know you'd found the recipe, Cary! BTW, you don't need Grey Goose vodka. I use Crystal Head. So I guess you'd call my version a Blue Skull.
