Starfleet as a military orginization

[Kaziarl]

For the record, a military is the organization created by, funded by, and controlled by the state which is legally empowered by the state to use force in defending the state in times of conflict or to use force in enforcing the will of the state (as in a declaration of martial law). Militaries are also distinguished as the only institutions within a state that are legally empowered to use force to enforce their internal code of conduct upon a member and to operate their own court system, called courts-martial. ("Martial" being an adjective form of "military.")

And a state is a political organization that has jurisdiction over a territory and the right to make laws and use violence to enforce those laws on people located within that territory.

The Federation has been established to have the capacity to make laws (TNG: "Force of Nature"). The Federation Starfleet has been established to be the institution that defends the Federation in times of conflict (the Dominion War) and to have the legal authority to engage in supplementary law enforcement (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...").

Further, Starfleet operates systems of courts-martial, as established in TOS: "Court Martial." Starfleet was also the institution called upon to enforce martial law on Earth in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was explicitly referred to as the military in "Paradise Lost" and in Star Trek II.

The Federation is a state and Starfleet is its military. Anyone claiming otherwise is engaging in doublethink.

And the Federation has laws, while Starfleet has 'regulations'.

As to Starfleet's exploration role: militaries don't just fight. Our research station in Antartica is operated with military support. The corps of engineers builds the structures, a naval icebreaker clears the path for the cargo ships, etc.

Sorry, the corps of engineers may have helped set up the structures, but its against international law to station military personell in antartica. I do agree though, that the military does have more then one purpose, but their primary one is defense. Where as starfleet seems to be research and development first, defense second. Even in times of war they seem to like to try and see whats behind the next nebula when time allows.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Starfleet has probably a higher number of scientists and non-combatant personnel among its ranks than any other "military" in history.

So, is it a military? Yes... among other things. Aside from defending and protecting the Federation, deep-space exploration is one of its primary functions. No traditional military had exploration or scientific research as one of its primary functions so far. So call it an entirely new type of military organization, if you like. Starfleet is basically NASA merged with the U.S. Navy.

Starflet was perhaps even intended to be a fully scentific agency in the beginning. This started to change when the Xindi attacked Earth and Starfleet was send on its first combat mission.

 

[neozeks]

Sorry, the corps of engineers may have helped set up the structures, but its against international law to station military personell in antartica.

Well, strictly, it isn't. Military operations are banned but you can station military personell if their purpose is helping scientific and research goals. i believe there is a permanent detachment of the NY Air Guard at McMurdo base that operates flights beetwen this base and the South Pole one.
Yeah, not really important, I just like to study these things.

I do agree though, that the military does have more then one purpose, but their primary one is defense. Where as starfleet seems to be research and development first, defense second. Even in times of war they seem to like to try and see whats behind the next nebula when time allows.

I see it as being pretty much equal roles in importance. They just like to emphasize the first more.

 

[Cyke101]

How much science was taught at Starfleet Academy during Kirk's time there, is there any evidence that Kirk was well versed in science? When it came to military tactics he knew what he was doing. How about Spock, is there any evidence to indicate that he was well versed in military tactics?

James

No idea about Spock, but he seemed to be well versed in, well, everything. Then again, he could be knowledable about tactics in an academic sense, as opposed to actual training.

As for Kirk, both in TOS and in XI, he was an academic genius. TOS had him as a walking stack of books and the film has him finishing a four year course in just three, and I would imagine, with Starfleet being as exploratory as it is, he would have to be well-versed to be so well renowned as a student.

Starfleet has probably a higher number of scientists and non-combatant personnel among its ranks than any other "military" in history.

So, is it a military? Yes... among other things. Aside from defending and protecting the Federation, deep-space exploration is one of its primary functions. No traditional military had exploration or scientific research as one of its primary functions so far. So call it an entirely new type of military organization, if you like. Starfleet is basically NASA merged with the U.S. Navy.

Starflet was perhaps even intended to be a fully scentific agency in the beginning. This started to change when the Xindi attacked Earth and Starfleet was send on its first combat mission.

So in other words, Starfleet is full of scientists that can kick ass. That just about confirms my suspicions

 

[C.E. Evans]

Starfleet is defined by whatever mission it's carrying out at the time, IMO.

 

[clint g]

For the record, a military is the organization created by, funded by, and controlled by the state which is legally empowered by the state to use force in defending the state in times of conflict or to use force in enforcing the will of the state (as in a declaration of martial law). Militaries are also distinguished as the only institutions within a state that are legally empowered to use force to enforce their internal code of conduct upon a member and to operate their own court system, called courts-martial. ("Martial" being an adjective form of "military.")

And a state is a political organization that has jurisdiction over a territory and the right to make laws and use violence to enforce those laws on people located within that territory.

The Federation has been established to have the capacity to make laws (TNG: "Force of Nature"). The Federation Starfleet has been established to be the institution that defends the Federation in times of conflict (the Dominion War) and to have the legal authority to engage in supplementary law enforcement (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...").

Further, Starfleet operates systems of courts-martial, as established in TOS: "Court Martial." Starfleet was also the institution called upon to enforce martial law on Earth in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was explicitly referred to as the military in "Paradise Lost" and in Star Trek II.

The Federation is a state and Starfleet is its military. Anyone claiming otherwise is engaging in doublethink.

And the Federation has laws, while Starfleet has 'regulations'.

As to Starfleet's exploration role: militaries don't just fight. Our research station in Antartica is operated with military support. The corps of engineers builds the structures, a naval icebreaker clears the path for the cargo ships, etc.

Sorry, the corps of engineers may have helped set up the structures, but its against international law to station military personell in antartica. I do agree though, that the military does have more then one purpose, but their primary one is defense. Where as starfleet seems to be research and development first, defense second. Even in times of war they seem to like to try and see whats behind the next nebula when time allows.

Tell that to the NY Air National Guard. They regularly fly into Antarctica, and while they may not be stationed there they conduct operations into the area regularly in suport of the research station

 

[neozeks]

So in other words, Starfleet is full of scientists that can kick ass.

The best kind of scientists. Or should I say the best of both worlds?

 

[James Wright]

When GR was developing Star Trek for television was Starfleet intended to be NASA?

James

 

[Anticitizen]

Kirk's description of Starfleet as a 'combined service' allows for a little bit o' NASA in there.

I think that the TNG's era of allowing 'families' onboard was more of an accommodation for non-starfleet civilian researchers, too. Certainly civilians aren't there just to be there. It's a starship, not an apartment complex...

 

[Sci]

No traditional military had exploration or scientific research as one of its primary functions so far.

Not true. Exploration was widely seen as one of the primary missions of the various European militaries, especially the British Royal Navy, during the so-called "age of exploration." Heck, Lewis and Clark were U.S. Army officers.

The notion that exploration is not a military mission is based on a completely false understanding of military history and organization.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

When GR was developing Star Trek for television was Starfleet intended to be NASA?

James

When Gene Roddenberry was developing Star Trek there was no Starfleet at all. The Enterprise's operating authority in early Season 1 episodes was the "United Earth Space Probe Agency" (which actually sounds more like NASA), until they finally began to settle on "Starfleet" late in the first season.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

No traditional military had exploration or scientific research as one of its primary functions so far.

Not true. Exploration was widely seen as one of the primary missions of the various European militaries, especially the British Royal Navy, during the so-called "age of exploration." Heck, Lewis and Clark were U.S. Army officers.

The notion that exploration is not a military mission is based on a completely false understanding of military history and organization.

Well, I didn't say that no military ever participated in missions of exploration before. I was talking about the primary function of a military organization.

I doubt that you can say that the Royal Navy or the U.S. Army were specifically founded for the purpose of conducting exploration and research. I also doubt that they considered themselves to be scientific organizations as much as military organizations. I also doubt they had that many biologists, geologists, anthropologists, or sociologists among their officers.

In a sense, Starfleet could be opposite of traditional militaries. Old militaries were founded for the purpose of warfare and then send on missions of exploration when the need arised. Starfleet was founded for the purpose of exploration and then send on combat missions when the need arised.

I would also say that we can see Starfleet gradually evolve from a purely scientific organization into a more military-like organization during "Enterprise" because of the way the NX-01's mission unfolded. Several encounters with hostile species successively led to the installment of phase cannons ("Silent Enemy", 1x12), the introduction of the first "Tactical Alert" ("Singularity", 2x09), the upgrading to photonic torpedoes ("The Expanse", 2x26), the deployment of a MACO unit to the Enterprise ("The Expanse", 2x26), and the installment of a command center ("The Xindi", 3x01).

IIRC, Captain Archer was originally uncomfortable with most of these changes because he felt that this would make his mission and his ship too "military-like". However, in the end he always came to the conclusion that these changes were necessary. By the time of TOS, military tasks had probably become a regular part of Starfleet's duties.

 

[clint g]

No traditional military had exploration or scientific research as one of its primary functions so far.

Not true. Exploration was widely seen as one of the primary missions of the various European militaries, especially the British Royal Navy, during the so-called "age of exploration." Heck, Lewis and Clark were U.S. Army officers.

The notion that exploration is not a military mission is based on a completely false understanding of military history and organization.

Well, I didn't say that no military ever participated in missions of exploration before. I was talking about the primary function of a military organization.

I doubt that you can say that the Royal Navy or the U.S. Army were specifically founded for the purpose of conducting exploration and research. I also doubt that they considered themselves to be scientific organizations as much as military organizations. I also doubt they had that many biologists, geologists, anthropologists, or sociologists among their officers.

In a sense, Starfleet could be opposite of traditional militaries. Old militaries were founded for the purpose of warfare and then send on missions of exploration when the need arised. Starfleet was founded for the purpose of exploration and then send on combat missions when the need arised.

I would also say that we can see Starfleet gradually evolve from a purely scientific organization into a more military-like organization during "Enterprise" because of the way the NX-01's mission unfolded. Several encounters with hostile species successively led to the installment of phase cannons ("Silent Enemy", 1x12), the introduction of the first "Tactical Alert" ("Singularity", 2x09), the upgrading to photonic torpedoes ("The Expanse", 2x26), the deployment of a MACO unit to the Enterprise ("The Expanse", 2x26), and the installment of a command center ("The Xindi", 3x01).

IIRC, Captain Archer was originally uncomfortable with most of these changes because he felt that this would make his mission and his ship too "military-like". However, in the end he always came to the conclusion that these changes were necessary. By the time of TOS, military tasks had probably become a regular part of Starfleet's duties.

A military isn't a stagnant organization. Just because it is founded to do one thing, doesn't mean that it would continue to perform that function in the same way. Take the US Air Force for example. At its very beginning, it was an organization designed to relay messages. It evolved into a combat role and now it is evolving further into a cyberspace and space organization (two of its three stated missions). Militaries change to suit the mission. In the age of exploration that mission was to explore the americas and see what they had to officer. In the 1800s the US Army's mission was to press into the west and explore what was essentially the unknown. Right now, space is the next big thing. And yes, the military does have biologists, meteorologists, geologists, and sociologists amongst its ranks.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

A military isn't a stagnant organization. Just because it is founded to do one thing, doesn't mean that it would continue to perform that function in the same way. Take the US Air Force for example. At its very beginning, it was an organization designed to relay messages.

This wasn't the Air Force though. Those were its progenitors. Progenitors who were still relaying military messages btw.

It evolved into a combat role and now it is evolving further into a cyberspace and space organization (two of its three stated missions).

Again, those aren't its primary functions. Whether these will ever become primary functions is speculation. If they will, it probably wouldn't mean that the Air Force loses its combat role. The combat would just be conducted elsewhere. Just like submarines are now conducting military duties under the sea instead of on its surface.

Militaries change to suit the mission. In the age of exploration that mission was to explore the americas and see what they had to officer. In the 1800s the US Army's mission was to press into the west and explore what was essentially the unknown.

Well, I have my doubts that most members of the 19th century U.S. Army would have defined themselves by saying: "I'm an officer in the United States Army. My job is to explore the unknown." or "I joined the Army to widen the knowledge of our continent."

Right now, space is the next big thing.

Not exactly. Space was the next big thing during the 50ies and 60ies... when space exploration was delegated to a civilian agency btw.

And yes, the military does have biologists, meteorologists, geologists, and sociologists amongst its ranks.

In the 18th century? Note that I was merely referring to Sci's comment that exploration was the military's primary function during the age of exploration.

Then again, I doubt that even current military has as many scientists as Starfleet has.



I'd say that Starfleet was originally intended to be purely scientific agency. See for example Archer's and Forrest's dialogue in "The Expanse" which implied that Starfleet wasn't considered a military at the time. However, at its core it had maintained some naval traditions from the start (use of military ranks), but more in a U.S. Coast Guard or French Gendarmerie kind of way. When Earth was first attacked, Starfleet had to adopt the duties of a "space navy". Starfleet was still at least 50% about space exploration and scientific research throughout its history though.

I'd say people that like Archer, Spock, Picard, Dax or Janeway joined Starfleet because of its mission of exploration. Kirk, Riker, Worf, or Sisko could have been at least partially motivated by the desire to defend the Federation against its enemies. Especially Worf doesn't care about research or exploration at all. Then again, Archer or Picard seemed a bit annoyed when their mission was seemingly "militarized". So the question is: Are there any high-ranking line officers in real-life militaries who are annoyed when they have to take on more combat duties because they think that this shouldn't be really their job? I don't think so. And this is what distinguishes Starfleet a bit different from earlier "militaries".

 

[Timo]

I'd say that Starfleet was originally intended to be purely scientific agency. See for example Archer's and Forrest's dialogue in "The Expanse" which implied that Starfleet wasn't considered a military at the time.

Actually, doesn't the entire first two seasons of ENT stand proof that the United Earth Starfleet had no experience whatsoever on exploration or scientific survey, and that Archer's crew was the first ever to attempt an exploratory mission? Yet UESF at that point was already a proud organization of long traditions on the operating of heavily armed starships. What had that organization been created for, if and when it wasn't exploration? Certainly veteran UESF people like Forrest were eager to show the hot end of Earthling rayguns to alien scum whenever the opportunity arose.

Now, the fancy banner from ENT "Demons" where Starfleet Command and UESPA stand proudly together might suggest that there were two jointly operating organizations back then: UESF for space fighting, and UESPA for space exploration. It just so happened that before the warp five starships, the only exploration UESPA could plausibly do was sending out unmanned probes - perfectly matching the name of the organization, as well as the witnessed Friendship One mission.

Add to this what the MACO stands for: Military Assault Command, Operations. We now have Starfleet Command and Military Assault Command, two organizations side by side on the same hierarchial rung at least as far as the semantic aspects of their names are considered. Not too different from the current practice of having an Army and a Navy side by side, with other important non-combatant government organizations standing basically equal to them as well.

When Earth was first attacked, Starfleet had to adopt the duties of a "space navy".

Which it did surprisingly well and swiftly... Why, when the Klingons tried an intrusion in "The Expanse", Starfleet immediately met them with three starships armed with state-of-the-art phase guns quite on par with the interstellar standards of ship-to-ship armament! Quite a contrast to the level of bumbling that this organization exhibited when trying to explore strange new worlds!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

They should have followed Air Force ranking, since they're all pilots (at least existing service astronauts are). The USAF ranks sound like army ranks, so ideally they should have a version of RAF ranks which sound ever so grand.

 

[clint g]

A military isn't a stagnant organization. Just because it is founded to do one thing, doesn't mean that it would continue to perform that function in the same way. Take the US Air Force for example. At its very beginning, it was an organization designed to relay messages.

This wasn't the Air Force though. Those were its progenitors. Progenitors who were still relaying military messages btw.

I know, I'm one of them

It evolved into a combat role and now it is evolving further into a cyberspace and space organization (two of its three stated missions).

Again, those aren't its primary functions. Whether these will ever become primary functions is speculation. If they will, it probably wouldn't mean that the Air Force loses its combat role. The combat would just be conducted elsewhere. Just like submarines are now conducting military duties under the sea instead of on its surface.

yet

Well, I have my doubts that most members of the 19th century U.S. Army would have defined themselves by saying: "I'm an officer in the United States Army. My job is to explore the unknown." or "I joined the Army to widen the knowledge of our continent."

Go talk to lewis and Clark about that

Right now, space is the next big thing.

Not exactly. Space was the next big thing during the 50ies and 60ies... when space exploration was delegated to a civilian agency btw.

Go look up USAF Space Command, US Army Space and Missile Defense Command (one of our fastest growing commands btw), and Naval Space Command. Anyways, long story short, yes it is the next big thing as far as the military is concerned

And yes, the military does have biologists, meteorologists, geologists, and sociologists amongst its ranks.

In the 18th century? Note that I was merely referring to Sci's comment that exploration was the military's primary function during the age of exploration.[/quote] Then direct that to his post, it was clear I was talking about the modern military

Then again, I doubt that even current military has as many scientists as Starfleet has.

Yet. it seems you skipped over that whole part about "constantly changing"

I'd say that Starfleet was originally intended to be purely scientific agency. See for example Archer's and Forrest's dialogue in "The Expanse" which implied that Starfleet wasn't considered a military at the time. However, at its core it had maintained some naval traditions from the start (use of military ranks), but more in a U.S. Coast Guard or French Gendarmerie kind of way. When Earth was first attacked, Starfleet had to adopt the duties of a "space navy". Starfleet was still at least 50% about space exploration and scientific research throughout its history though.

Which doesn't make something not a military. Also, the US Coast Guard is a military organization so by comparing Starfleet to the Coast Guard you're shooting your argument in the foot

I'd say people that like Archer, Spock, Picard, Dax or Janeway joined Starfleet because of its mission of exploration. Kirk, Riker, Worf, or Sisko could have been at least partially motivated by the desire to defend the Federation against its enemies. Especially Worf doesn't care about research or exploration at all. Then again, Archer or Picard seemed a bit annoyed when their mission was seemingly "militarized". So the question is: Are there any high-ranking line officers in real-life militaries who are annoyed when they have to take on more combat duties because they think that this shouldn't be really their job? I don't think so. And this is what distinguishes Starfleet a bit different from earlier "militaries".

And I know people who joined the military because they wanted to become doctors. I personally joined the military because of an interest in computer and information technology. I know others who joined because they wanted to be lawyers. You're making your argument based on the motivation of individuals and it doesn't work because everyone has different motivations for joining the military just like the military has hundreds of different objectives and goals. At different points in time there are different focuses, which is exactly what you described in your post. During peacetime Starfleet explored, during war it fought battles. In the case of the modern US military, during peacetime it conducts humanitarian missions and disaster relief, during war it fights.

 

[barnaclelapse]

When GR was developing Star Trek for television was Starfleet intended to be NASA?

James

I always thought it was his idea of what he hoped NASA would eventually become.

 

[Cyke101]

I've a friend who joined the Air Force to learn more about aeronautical design, thanks to rapid improvements and collaborations with companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin. He's now a captain.

And yes, I shoot random Trek jokes at him

 

[neozeks]

Actually, doesn't the entire first two seasons of ENT stand proof that the United Earth Starfleet had no experience whatsoever on exploration or scientific survey, and that Archer's crew was the first ever to attempt an exploratory mission? Yet UESF at that point was already a proud organization of long traditions on the operating of heavily armed starships. What had that organization been created for, if and when it wasn't exploration? Certainly veteran UESF people like Forrest were eager to show the hot end of Earthling rayguns to alien scum whenever the opportunity arose.

I'm not really sure where you're getting from 'a proud organization of long traditions on the operating of heavily armed starships' part. The way I see it Starfleet was around for only 20-30 years before ENT (Memory-Alpha seems to indicate this) and most of the time was spent developing the warp 5 engine and developing and operating the intermediate ship classes up to the NX class. What were they used for? Short range exploration and survey (pretty different than long range), coast guard type duties, testing the technology. They aren't really heavily armed either. Enterprise had state of the art technology and it only had simple torpedoes at the beginning. And anyway, like I said, who would they fight? They knew very little about other races (and anyway what good would a warp 2 or 3 ship do against them?), they had the Vulcan's protection. There was no practical purpose for a 'space navy'.

Now, the fancy banner from ENT "Demons" where Starfleet Command and UESPA stand proudly together might suggest that there were two jointly operating organizations back then: UESF for space fighting, and UESPA for space exploration.

Or they were jointly operating in the sense that one operated maned ships, the other unmaned spacecraft.

When Earth was first attacked, Starfleet had to adopt the duties of a "space navy".

Which it did surprisingly well and swiftly... Why, when the Klingons tried an intrusion in "The Expanse", Starfleet immediately met them with three starships armed with state-of-the-art phase guns quite on par with the interstellar standards of ship-to-ship armament! Quite a contrast to the level of bumbling that this organization exhibited when trying to explore strange new worlds!

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, but when did 'The Expanse' happen? Two years into the Enterprise mission. For supposed military personel (who after all, spend most of their time training and training for fighting) they were also pretty bumbling in their fighting at the start of the series. But once SF learned the lesson that space was dangerous they started implementing what they learned from NX-01's mission to other ships as well, thus acquiring more and more a military role.

Which doesn't make something not a military. Also, the US Coast Guard is a military organization so by comparing Starfleet to the Coast Guard you're shooting your argument in the foot.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Starfleet isn't military, just that it originaly wasn't a military and that later it became a military, just a somewhat atypical one.
As for the Coast Guard, the US Coast Guard isn't the only coast guard in the world. Many of them aren't military organizations (like for example, the Canadian one).
So at first Starfleet was like one of these non-military coast guards, later it became like a mix of USN/USCG

P.S. Why did they then have uniforms and ranks even at the beginning if they weren't military? Because they were a uniformed but not a military force. Look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformed_services_of_the_United_States and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oceanic_and_Atmospheric_Administration_Commissioned_Corps.