Starfleet as a military orginization

[Anwar]

Well, even if he was still a Commander he could have his own ship (in the Navy you can command a vessel at the rank of Lt Cmdr, it just won't be a pristine state of the art beauty). And with his record of adventures you'd think he'd have Excelsior even at the rank of Commander.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Military" is one of those obsolete concepts for humans and has been filed away in their historical vault of anachronisms, right along with gulags, pogroms, taxes, health insurance and television.

That's absolute nonsense. We have seen Starfleet described as a military, we have seen it perform all of the functions of a military.

Uh huh. And the Tantalus Penal Colony is the Federation Gitmo.

The idea that a military is an obsolete concept is also complete bullshit -- a military can only be obsolete when there are no more wars to be fought.

You don't need a military to fight wars. You only need WEAPONS. The whole concept of militaries was invented (and relatively recently at that) because powerful states discovered that winning wars is easier when the people using those weapons are trained to use them. The two solutions to this were: 1) Standing military 2) thriving mercenary industry. Starfleet is a third solution: teach your explorers how to use those weapons.

All kinds of concepts we think are terribly important today are also obsolete in the 24th century. Monetary economics, for example, and with it the related concepts of taxation, banking, investment, etc. You could say "Earth is not greedy or capitalistic" but that would be splitting hairs; they really don't use money. By the same token, when it comes to fighting wars, they don't use a military.

 

[Sci]

"Military" is one of those obsolete concepts for humans and has been filed away in their historical vault of anachronisms, right along with gulags, pogroms, taxes, health insurance and television.

That's absolute nonsense. We have seen Starfleet described as a military, we have seen it perform all of the functions of a military.

Uh huh. And the Tantalus Penal Colony is the Federation Gitmo.

The idea that a military is an obsolete concept is also complete bullshit -- a military can only be obsolete when there are no more wars to be fought.

You don't need a military to fight wars. You only need WEAPONS. The whole concept of militaries was invented (and relatively recently at that)

Bullshit. Militaries have been around for millennia.

because powerful states discovered that winning wars is easier when the people using those weapons are trained to use them. The two solutions to this were: 1) Standing military 2) thriving mercenary industry. Starfleet is a third solution: teach your explorers how to use those weapons.

But even if you have a dedicated exploratory corps, the act of making them your institution dedicated to using violence to defend the state inherently makes them a military organization. That's the definition of a military -- the institution charged by the state with defending the state in times of conflict.

All kinds of concepts we think are terribly important today are also obsolete in the 24th century. Monetary economics, for example, and with it the related concepts of taxation, banking, investment, etc. You could say "Earth is not greedy or capitalistic" but that would be splitting hairs; they really don't use money.

Except in the numerous cases when they do (Dr. Crusher buying something at Farpoint Station and charging it to her account, Quark buying a ticket on a transport from Earth to DS9, Scotty buying a boat, Spock talking about how many thousands of credits Starfleet has invested in his training, Cyrano Jones selling tribbles in exchange for Federation credits, the Federation offering the pay the Barzanians millions of credits every year for access to their wormhole, Bashir's dad owning his own interstellar transport business, Vulcan merchants charging Janeway and Tuvok more for his merchandise because they're Starfleet officers, etc).

By the same token, when it comes to fighting wars, they don't use a military.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

The very act of designating one particular organization as being the organization legally empowered by the state to fight a war makes that institution a military.

Why?

A military is the organization legally empowered to use violence in defense of the state. It also possesses courts-martial, a unique legal capacity to use force to enforce its internal code of conduct upon its members that no other institution possesses.

To put it another way...

Here's a modus ponens syllogism:

If A, then B.
A.
Therefore, B.

A modus ponens syllogism is inherently valid and therefore irrefutable so long as its premises -- that A implies B and that A, the antecedent of the conditional claim, is true -- are confirmed to be accurate.

Now let's apply modus ponens to this issue. Text in italics will constitute A; text in bold will constitute B.

If an institution is legally charged with using violence in defense of the state in times of war and/or possesses courts-martial, then that institution is a military.

The Federation Starfleet is legally charged with using violence in the defense of the state in times of war and possesses courts-martial.

Therefore, the Federation Starfleet is a military.

Now, let's test the premises.

What is the definition of the word "military" in the noun form?

From Wikipedia:

A military is an organization authorized by its nation to use force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country (or by attacking other countries) by combating actual or perceived threats.

From Merriam-Webster:

Main entry: 2military
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural military also mil·i·tar·ies
Date: 1709
1: military persons ; especially : army officers
2: armed forces

So let's check out "armed forces."

From Wikipedia:

The armed forces of a country are its government-sponsored defense, fighting forces, and organizations. They exist to further the foreign and domestic policies of their governing body, and to defend that body and the nation it represents from external and internal aggressors.

Most of the dictionary hits just define "armed forces" as "the combined military forces of a country;" since we don't want to use circular logic ("A military is the armed forces; the armed forces are the military"), let's use that definition.

In other words, the first premise of ("If A, then B") is confirmed as accurate. If an institution is legally empowered to use violence in defense of the state during times of war, it is a military.

Let us now check out the accuracy of the assertion that A is true -- that the Federation Starfleet is legally empowered to use force to defend the state in times of war and possesses courts-martial.

Well, we've seen courts-martial numerous times, particularly in TOS's "Court Martial." So that one's valid.

And we've seen the Federation Starfleet being used to defend the UFP in times of war, with no other legal institution appearing to defend the Federation, particularly during DS9's Dominion War. "The Siege of AR-558" even included Starfleet regulations about how to wage war (rotating troops off the front lines).

In other words, the Federation Starfleet is the institution legally empowered to defend the Federation in times of war.

So, "If A, then B" is confirmed as accurate. And the assertion of A is confirmed as accurate.

Logically, therefore, the syllogism stands and is irrefutable. It is logically valid: It is both true and sound.

If an organization is legally charged with defending the state in times of war and/or possesses courts-martial, it is a military.

The Federation Starfleet is legally charged with defending the state in times of war and possesses courts-martial.

Therefore, the Federation Starfleet is a military.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Starfleet is both a scientific agency and a military organization.

However, we should probably refrain from classifying it by 21st century standards. While it isn't exactly a traditional military in our sense, it is what the military has become by the 23rd/24th century.

 

[clint g]

Its pretty clear that Starfleet is a military. As mentioned up thread when Janeway and Picard say its not, they're essentially engaging in double talk. It fulfills all the functions of a military. That said, it also has a large exploratory and scientific aspect. This isn't unusual, as modern day militaries do invest alot in scientific research. In the past, they also played a large part in exploration. it shouldnt bea shock that militaries would be deeply involved in these things in the future

 

[Kaziarl]

Its pretty clear that Starfleet is a military. As mentioned up thread when Janeway and Picard say its not, they're essentially engaging in double talk. It fulfills all the functions of a military. That said, it also has a large exploratory and scientific aspect. This isn't unusual, as modern day militaries do invest alot in scientific research. In the past, they also played a large part in exploration. it shouldnt bea shock that militaries would be deeply involved in these things in the future

I think the reason Picard and Janeway say that is so they don't seem hostile. I think most of the races they come across would probably be more apprehensive around them if they had battle ships, their officers were loaded down with weapons, etc, then they would as they are now.

For example, would a third world country feel more of a threat from the red cross giving their volunteers and employee's pistols for their protection walking into town? Or from a battalion of fully armed Army personnel?

I feel that calling Starfleet a military is somewhat inaccurate. At the same time I feel that saying its not a military is equally inaccurate. It does have a military structure, but then there are a few civilian organizations have had a similar structure. Not nearly as strict, but its there.

 

[Timo]

There's also always the possibility that some of our heroes, for some of the time, are using the word "military" in its other standard sense: as referring to armies utilized in ground combat, the traditional antithesis of seagoing combat forces.

When Picard in "Peak Performance" says he doesn't like running wargames because his is not a military organization, he could merely be exhibiting Navy bias against the Army: "We Navy people don't require idiotic repetitive drills to be competent soldiers!". A Federation Military might exist in parallel to Federation Starfleet in the 24th century, then - or then Picard might be making one of those historical references he's so fond of, and making comparisons with an entity that no longer exists.

When Admiral Forrest wonders if Archer will enjoy working with the military, he could again be worried that Archer is a Navy guy through and through, and has already operated for two years with Navy soldiers protecting his landing parties or patrolling the corridors of his ship. Taking aboard Army Rangers to perform those jobs might be seen as an insult. However, Archer apparently isn't given to such interservice rivalry at all, nor is Reed whose job is being usurped.

When did Janeway suggest Starfleet wasn't a military setup?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Its pretty clear that Starfleet is a military. As mentioned up thread when Janeway and Picard say its not, they're essentially engaging in double talk. It fulfills all the functions of a military. That said, it also has a large exploratory and scientific aspect. This isn't unusual, as modern day militaries do invest alot in scientific research. In the past, they also played a large part in exploration. it shouldnt bea shock that militaries would be deeply involved in these things in the future

I think the reason Picard and Janeway say that is so they don't seem hostile. I think most of the races they come across would probably be more apprehensive around them if they had battle ships, their officers were loaded down with weapons, etc, then they would as they are now.

For example, would a third world country feel more of a threat from the red cross giving their volunteers and employee's pistols for their protection walking into town? Or from a battalion of fully armed Army personnel?

I feel that calling Starfleet a military is somewhat inaccurate. At the same time I feel that saying its not a military is equally inaccurate. It does have a military structure, but then there are a few civilian organizations have had a similar structure. Not nearly as strict, but its there.

And maybe Starfleet simply doesn't use the term "military". Maybe they refer to themselves in a more politically correct way as a "defense agency" or even "exploratory and defense agency" or something like that.

However, if someone attacks the Federation Starfleet will still shoot at them.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I've always been a proponent of the concept that Starfleet is definitely military.

1) The ranks follow our naval military tradition. That one's easy.
2) David Marcus' rant in TWOK about "Scientists have always been pawns of the military".
3) In "Errand of Mercy" when Kirk is addressing the Organian council, he specifically says the words "I'm a soldier". Soldier = Military or, at the very least, paramilitary.

Retcon dialog in later incarnations of Trek may indicate that, by that time, Starfleet doesn't consider itself military any more, but they have their ground pounders in DS9 and they sure acted military during the Dominion Wars. Seems to me that by the 24th century they are in complete denial of their true roots because of their "evolved sensibility", like it's a mutually exclusive concept.

This same concept applies to the "do they have money?" argument, when clearly credits were mentioned several times during TOS and gold-pressed latinum seemed to be quite widely used by many Federation member worlds, not just the Ferengi (such as Jadzia Dax's propensity to collect GPL in various Dabo games and enjoying it).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, even if he was still a Commander he could have his own ship (in the Navy you can command a vessel at the rank of Lt Cmdr, it just won't be a pristine state of the art beauty). And with his record of adventures you'd think he'd have Excelsior even at the rank of Commander.

Actually I don't think Sulu could command a ship as a Commander remeber even the small wimpy Scoutships have full Captains onboard, Plus I can't see Starfleet turning the most advanced Starship class they had at the time over to a mere Commander.

 

[Star Wolf]

Well, even if he was still a Commander he could have his own ship (in the Navy you can command a vessel at the rank of Lt Cmdr, it just won't be a pristine state of the art beauty). And with his record of adventures you'd think he'd have Excelsior even at the rank of Commander.

Actually I don't think Sulu could command a ship as a Commander remeber even the small wimpy Scoutships have full Captains onboard, Plus I can't see Starfleet turning the most advanced Starship class they had at the time over to a mere Commander.

On the other hand before but especially after the movie many came to the conculsion that Enterprise had a commander Kirk serve as her captain. And customs of the service dictated that he be called Captain.

 

[The Wormhole]

You know, watching TOS it seems pretty clear that Starfleet is supposed to be a military organization. Ignoring certain aspects that were only allowed due to the conventions of television, Starfleet is set up in a very militristic way, everyone acts in a militristic manner, everything about it has a military feel to it. It seems clear to be that the intention at the time was that Starfleet was very much meant to be the space military.

It wasn't until TNG came along when everyone began denying the military nature of Starfleet, due primarily to ignorance among the writing staff of what a military is. In my opinion the matter got worse in Enterprise when they maintain that Starfleet is not military, and then introduce the MACOs as "the military." That to me makes as much sense as trying to claim the Navy isn't military, but the Marines are.

As far as I'm concerned, Starfleet is military, and was originally portrayed as such. But then everyone began denying the military nature, which has led to no one wanting to admit that it's a military. Even JJ Abrams sidestepped the issue in Trek XI by referring to Starfleet as a "humanitarian peacekeeping force." Which to me still sounds like a military, after all, aren't UN Peacekeepers considered military personel?

 

[Star Wolf]

UN, try Farscape!

 

[Sci]

You know, watching TOS it seems pretty clear that Starfleet is supposed to be a military organization. Ignoring certain aspects that were only allowed due to the conventions of television, Starfleet is set up in a very militristic way, everyone acts in a militristic manner, everything about it has a military feel to it. It seems clear to be that the intention at the time was that Starfleet was very much meant to be the space military.

It wasn't until TNG came along when everyone began denying the military nature of Starfleet, due primarily to ignorance among the writing staff of what a military is. In my opinion the matter got worse in Enterprise when they maintain that Starfleet is not military, and then introduce the MACOs as "the military." That to me makes as much sense as trying to claim the Navy isn't military, but the Marines are.

As far as I'm concerned, Starfleet is military, and was originally portrayed as such. But then everyone began denying the military nature, which has led to no one wanting to admit that it's a military. Even JJ Abrams sidestepped the issue in Trek XI by referring to Starfleet as a "humanitarian peacekeeping force." Which to me still sounds like a military, after all, aren't UN Peacekeepers considered military personel?

United Nations Peacekeeping troops are indeed members of the various militaries of U.N. Member States, on detached service to the U.N. by the consent of their governments.

 

[SilentP]

Even JJ Abrams sidestepped the issue in Trek XI by referring to Starfleet as a "humanitarian peacekeeping force." Which to me still sounds like a military, after all, aren't UN Peacekeepers considered military personel?

Actuall the quote spoken by Pike in the movie was 'humanitarian peacekeeping armada, so I'd say that even JJ has decided that Starfleet is actually a military. Ok, ok, he says the Federation is the armada, but I'm going to write that down as a script messup.

 

[Cyke101]

In my humble opinion, any organization that uses the title "Operation: _________" to describe a major engagement by force and might, ie Operation: Return, is a military organization.

 

[neozeks]

It wasn't until TNG came along when everyone began denying the military nature of Starfleet, due primarily to ignorance among the writing staff of what a military is. In my opinion the matter got worse in Enterprise when they maintain that Starfleet is not military, and then introduce the MACOs as "the military." That to me makes as much sense as trying to claim the Navy isn't military, but the Marines are.

I think I would disagree about Enterprise. Primarily because I believe that at the start of the series Earth Starfleet really is NOT an military. As depicted, it's aim is purely exploration. Sure, the ships have weapons, but only for their own defence. At that point Earth doesn't have a space-based military because they don't think they need one. They don't know how dangerous space is and anyway they have the Vulcans to protect them. They only have MACOs as an planet-based military, pretty much equivalent to today's militaries (i guess there is a Navy and Airforce counterpart to them as well). Only later when they start to see the need for it do they give Starfleet more and more a military role. Eventually, seeing how in galactic warfare ship-to-ship combat has a much greater role than planet-based combat, it becomes the primary military force.

Also, I would like to point one thing. There is a good example that shows that the fact that Starfleet has an important exploration and scientific role shouldn't prevent it from being a military. The US Coast Guard. What does it primarily do? Law enforcement and search and rescue. And yet it has a combat capability (heck, it's probably stronger than most smaller countries' Navies), participates in wars, has court-martials, ranks and is in the end considered a part of the US armed forces ie. it is a military organization.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ Thank you. Beat me to it.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[James Wright]

How much science was taught at Starfleet Academy during Kirk's time there, is there any evidence that Kirk was well versed in science? When it came to military tactics he knew what he was doing. How about Spock, is there any evidence to indicate that he was well versed in military tactics?

James

 

[Anticitizen]

For the record, a military is the organization created by, funded by, and controlled by the state which is legally empowered by the state to use force in defending the state in times of conflict or to use force in enforcing the will of the state (as in a declaration of martial law). Militaries are also distinguished as the only institutions within a state that are legally empowered to use force to enforce their internal code of conduct upon a member and to operate their own court system, called courts-martial. ("Martial" being an adjective form of "military.")

And a state is a political organization that has jurisdiction over a territory and the right to make laws and use violence to enforce those laws on people located within that territory.

The Federation has been established to have the capacity to make laws (TNG: "Force of Nature"). The Federation Starfleet has been established to be the institution that defends the Federation in times of conflict (the Dominion War) and to have the legal authority to engage in supplementary law enforcement (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...").

Further, Starfleet operates systems of courts-martial, as established in TOS: "Court Martial." Starfleet was also the institution called upon to enforce martial law on Earth in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was explicitly referred to as the military in "Paradise Lost" and in Star Trek II.

The Federation is a state and Starfleet is its military. Anyone claiming otherwise is engaging in doublethink.

And the Federation has laws, while Starfleet has 'regulations'.

As to Starfleet's exploration role: militaries don't just fight. Our research station in Antartica is operated with military support. The corps of engineers builds the structures, a naval icebreaker clears the path for the cargo ships, etc.