Starfleet as a military orginization

[James Wright]

Is Starfleet a military orginization that is primarily set up to explore space?
The reason I ask this is because when Kirk is demoted to Captain and given command of the E-A either Spock should've been demoted to Commander or Kirk should've been a Commodore. It seems that Starfleet has changed the regulation concerning the number of Captains serving in the chain of command of starships!?
Is this because of the scientific mission of Starfleet and not the military mission?

James

 

[Peter the Younger]

I don't think different regulations concerning command ranks would preclude Starfleet from being a military structure. I always assumed they gave Spock a special dispensation of some kind, rather than permanently reduce his rank.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

The only I could possibly think Starfleet isn't a military is by using the same convuluted doublethink Johnny Luc or Captain Caffeine use when they spout out the phrase "Starfleet isn't a military."

 

[captcalhoun]

Is Starfleet a military orginization that is primarily set up to explore space?
The reason I ask this is because when Kirk is demoted to Captain and given command of the E-A either Spock should've been demoted to Commander or Kirk should've been a Commodore. It seems that Starfleet has changed the regulation concerning the number of Captains serving in the chain of command of starships!?
Is this because of the scientific mission of Starfleet and not the military mission?

James

considering that Scotty's a captain after 3 as well as Spock and Kirk, i'd guess there's no regulations about the number of captain ranked officers on a starship.

and yes, Starfleet is military. it defends the Federation in times of war, it holds courts martial, it enforces martial law, it was stated to be a military coup when Leyton took over, they have weapons and uniforms, they have a military rank structure. they're military.

 

[RichMerk]

I was always given to believe that Gene Roddenberry wanted Starfleet to be not overtly military. That's why the TOS uniforms had minimal military bling and vague ranking. Dunno if that's actually true or just Trekkie mythology. Things changed as time went on however as other people came in after GR died to run things as they saw fit.

 

[Arpy]

Aren't you confusing rank w/ position? Technically you could have a ship full of captains, no? ...From commanding officer to...whoever has the lowest job on a ship - sorry, never was in the military. But Captain Aims would be the commanding officer, Captain Beams the first officer, Captain Chase second officer, etc. Confusing, I know. I didn't like it the first time I heard it either, but you get used to it. Plus, most ships do have 1 captain captaining them after all! Trek ships anyway...in the real world aren't there lieutenants commanding some smaller ships?

You still address whoever's in command of a ship as captain of it, regardless of their rank:
DS9's "Behind Enemy Lines"
O'Brien: It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as 'captain.'
Nog: You mean if I had to take command, I'd be called 'captain', too?
O'Brien: Cadet, by the time you took command, there wouldn't be anyone left to call you anything.

 

[Star Wolf]

Aren't you confusing rank w/ position? Technically you could have a ship full of captains, no? ...From commanding officer to...whoever has the lowest job on a ship - sorry, never was in the military. But Captain Aims would be the commanding officer, Captain Beams the first officer, Captain Chase second officer, etc. Confusing, I know. I didn't like it the first time I heard it either, but you get used to it. Plus, most ships do have 1 captain captaining them after all! Trek ships anyway...in the real world aren't there lieutenants commanding some smaller ships?

You still address whoever's in command of a ship as captain of it, regardless of their rank:
DS9's;Behind Enemy Lines
O'Brien: It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as captain.
Nog: You mean if I had to take command, I'd be called captain, too?
O'Brien: Cadet, by the time you took command, there wouldn't be anyone left to call you anything.

I have seen in many SF franchises the prejudice of there is only one Captain aboard a ship. Sometimes that scene is added Clancy style to explain why a Marine/MACO captain is called Major only onboard ship.

As that was going on in fiction aboard USN carriers rank inflation was happening. Commander jobs, the XO, the CAG, the Chief Enginner had become captain ranked jobs. But the Captain never became a Commodore like Ross in Space: Above and Beyond.

These days it would be fair to say that it is only on civilian vessels that there is only one captain as their rank structure seems much more set into place then the military which had grade inflation over the last century like fighter squadrons being commanded by full Colonels instead of Majors or Special Forces squads being made up of all Sergeants commanded by a Captain insted of a Staff Sergeant.

Even the police as protrayed on The Closer or the small town police force on In The Heat of The Nighthad inflation of ranks a detective squad commanded by a Chief with Lieutenants and Segeants doing the grunt work and commanding nobody.

 

[Sci]

For the record, a military is the organization created by, funded by, and controlled by the state which is legally empowered by the state to use force in defending the state in times of conflict or to use force in enforcing the will of the state (as in a declaration of martial law). Militaries are also distinguished as the only institutions within a state that are legally empowered to use force to enforce their internal code of conduct upon a member and to operate their own court system, called courts-martial. ("Martial" being an adjective form of "military.")

And a state is a political organization that has jurisdiction over a territory and the right to make laws and use violence to enforce those laws on people located within that territory.

The Federation has been established to have the capacity to make laws (TNG: "Force of Nature"). The Federation Starfleet has been established to be the institution that defends the Federation in times of conflict (the Dominion War) and to have the legal authority to engage in supplementary law enforcement (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...").

Further, Starfleet operates systems of courts-martial, as established in TOS: "Court Martial." Starfleet was also the institution called upon to enforce martial law on Earth in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was explicitly referred to as the military in "Paradise Lost" and in Star Trek II.

The Federation is a state and Starfleet is its military. Anyone claiming otherwise is engaging in doublethink.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think Kirk said it best when he described Starfleet as "a combined service" and left it at that.

 

[Star Wolf]

I think Kirk said it best when he described Starfleet as a combined service and left it at that.

But then Archer and Reed ruined that by crying about the military being assigned to the Enterprise when she went to talk to the Xindi.

 

[Sci]

I think Kirk said it best when he described Starfleet as a combined service and left it at that.

But then Archer and Reed ruined that by crying about the military being assigned to the Enterprise when she went to talk to the Xindi.

Evidence from ENT is irrelevant; that was the United Earth Starfleet, which can no more be presumed to be the same organization as the Federation Starfleet than can the Massachusetts State Navy be presumed to be the same organization as the United States Navy: The only thing that either pair of organizations have in common is a word in the name.

 

[msbae]

Is Starfleet a military orginization that is primarily set up to explore space?
The reason I ask this is because when Kirk is demoted to Captain and given command of the E-A either Spock should've been demoted to Commander or Kirk should've been a Commodore. It seems that Starfleet has changed the regulation concerning the number of Captains serving in the chain of command of starships!?
Is this because of the scientific mission of Starfleet and not the military mission?

James

It's not uncommon for service members of equal rank to bne in the same chain of command with one being the CO of the other. My army recruiter is the same rank as the recruiting station commander.

BTW, Starfleet is a military organization. It's usual role might be exploration but, they still

• do border patrols,
• fight the wars,
• combat piracy,
• engage in Humanitarian relief operation,

...and all the other things our military does in the real world.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think Kirk said it best when he described Starfleet as a combined service and left it at that.

But then Archer and Reed ruined that by crying about the military being assigned to the Enterprise when she went to talk to the Xindi.

Not at all. The MACOs are a totally different organization than Starfleet. As a combined service, Starfleet's role isn't limited to just defense. The same probably wasn't true for the MACOs.

While the distinctions between Starfleet and any other military force is indeed tenuous--and virtually nonexistent during times of armed conflict--I think Starfleet truly is (as Kirk said it) a combined service that performs a wide variety of roles, including defense. Personally, I don't think it's fair to label Starfleet as either a military or an exploration fleet because it's both of those things and much more, IMO...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Military" is one of those obsolete concepts for humans and has been filed away in their historical vault of anachronisms, right along with gulags, pogroms, taxes, health insurance and television. Starfleet, therefore, is a military organization in the same sense that the holodeck is a movie studio.

I actually believe that every race assigns its starships based on their primary cultural/evolutionary imperative. The Xyrilians, for example, were a race of parasitic life forms, so their ships were basically designed to leech energy and resources off of other ships they encountered. Klingons are predators, so their ships are designed to kill other ships. Romulans are conquerors, so their ships are designed to destroy other ships and support invasion operations. Bajorans are artisans and philosophers, their ships are (or until recently WERE) designed to support the pilgrimage of holy men and scribes. If you found a race of migratory birds somewhere in the galaxy, their ships would probably be designed to support mass migrations from one planet to another. And Vulcans, ever the inquisitive thinkers, design all of their ships for scientific research and experimentation.

Humans are like Vulcans in that they're naturally inquisitive, but they also like to explore DISTANT areas and learn new things about new places. Sometimes just for the exploitation of resources, but also because humans like to find new uses for new resources and learn new things from new cultures. This is why they build their ships primarily for deep space exploration. This makes starfleet "The Earth space service," the only one that matters, and therefore it is a competitor with the Bajoran/Klingon/Xyrillian/whatever space services, whatever they were designed for.

 

[Nevyn]

Spock, Scotty and Sulu were temporarily reduced in rank in order to serve under Kirk on the Enterprise-A in a similar way Decker was put back to commander when Admiral Kirk took over in the first film. So there was only one captain at that time.

As for Starfleet being a military organisation. It has been said on a number of occasions throughout the show that Starfleet's first mission is to seek out new lifeforms and new civilisations and blablabla... So there first objective is exploration. But if the situation demands it, Starfleet will also serve as the Federation's line of defense and on rare occasions even as a police force.

 

[Super55]

Is Starfleet a military orginization that is primarily set up to explore space?
The reason I ask this is because when Kirk is demoted to Captain and given command of the E-A either Spock should've been demoted to Commander or Kirk should've been a Commodore. It seems that Starfleet has changed the regulation concerning the number of Captains serving in the chain of command of starships!?
Is this because of the scientific mission of Starfleet and not the military mission?

James

Apparently having more then one captain on a ship is not prohibited, as other posters have pointed out. Did you know that the current Captain and First Officer on the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise, (CVN 65) are both of the rank of Captain? http://www.enterprise.navy.mil/commandleadership.html

 

[Sci]

"Military" is one of those obsolete concepts for humans and has been filed away in their historical vault of anachronisms, right along with gulags, pogroms, taxes, health insurance and television.

That's absolute nonsense. We have seen Starfleet described as a military, we have seen it perform all of the functions of a military. The idea that a military is an obsolete concept is also complete bullshit -- a military can only be obsolete when there are no more wars to be fought. The Federation is not aggressive or militaristic, but the Dominion War alone proves that the Federation continues to require the services of a military to protect itself against hostile imperialists.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Spock, Scotty and Sulu were temporarily reduced in rank in order to serve under Kirk on the Enterprise-A in a similar way Decker was put back to commander when Admiral Kirk took over in the first film. So there was only one captain at that time.

Except

One I believe Spock was still at Captain rank.

Two Sulu was NOT a captain until Star Trek VI.

 

[Anwar]

Really? I thought there was a deleted scene in WOK where Kirk told Sulu he was given the Excelsior.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Really? I thought there was a deleted scene in WOK where Kirk told Sulu he was given the Excelsior.

I think there is too but I don't think there is a copy of that scene that still exists.

And any stuff in Trek lit that deals with it usually has Sulu only about to be a captain and losing the promotion for helping Kirk and the others steal the Enterprise and what not.