Say it again for those in the back!
News Starfleet Academy Coming to P+
- Thread starter Tuskin38
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If it's any later than 2273, then we've got a gap of time for what Kirk was doing. Likely not another command, as he mentions "five years, out there" in TMP, as the reason to relieve Decker of command.
Oh, it's 2273. No more debate unless the whole Okuda chronology gets shifted or reset.
Different details matter to Different people. I'm less on exact recreation and more on the characters and their responses. Tech and ships fall my "close enough" rule.
Depends on how one wants to see it. We have no actual dates in TMP, and regarding the crew/ship, we only have three mentions of time. Kirk's time as COO of Starfleet, his "five years, out there" and Scott's mentioning of 18 months spent refitting the Enterprise.
There is a lot of room to move around in there. Though we have to reconcile Decker's promotion to Enterprise captain. Did it happen prior to the beginning of the refit, during the refit, or just a few hours before the ship was supposed to depart?
2273 assumes the Enterprise went in for refit immediately after returning, which I don't think is necessary.
Kirk's "5 years" quote doesn't imply any immediacy, "My experience, five years out there dealing with unknowns like this. My familiarity with the Enterprise, this crew." This quote does not suggest there was no time inbetween 2270 and the refit.
Scotty has been there for 18 months refitting Enterprise... does not preclude him doing other things in the meantime.
Given that some character things do seem to happen, it seems more likely it's been at least a few years inbetween.
That's fair.
All the details matter to me, with a caveat of "close enough" working... if it's close enough.
Worf's TNG forehead? Close enough.
Saavik recast? Close enough (I probably would have preferred to just use a different character. We didn't actually NEED Saavik.)
Doesn't have to all be visual. Ferengi in ENT? Meh, close enough.
Completely redesigning the look of an entire era we have seen already to something that doesn't even remotely look like it? Not close enough. I would have been ok with close enough. We didn't get close enough. "Close enough" are things like the Discovery phasers and tricorders and the like. I'll give them "close enough". Especially in terms of SNW, other, non-Enterprise Federation ships we have seen? Close enough.
Hell even something Discovery itself... i'm largely able to write off as "close enough". I formerly used a self-justification that it was a pretty good bridge between the TOS look and the TMP look, and since the ship was supposed to be brand new, it made sense. Enterprise is an older ship, so it kind of makes sense that the older ships would have that more TOS look while the newer ships like Discovery had something more resembling stuff we would see later...
I was wrong, but I went with it for awhile. But even still, I can buy things that haven't seen before looking not the way I might expect them to look. I have a much harder time buying something we have seen many times, in several different places, looking different. It's compounded by "the thing" being... like... the single most iconic image in all of sci-fi.
Really, I probably wouldn't care all that much about any of the other changes if the Enterprise was just... the Enterprise, with better lighting and textures and what not. I might even be "close enough" if they used Eaves' original version with the straight nacelles and different colors.
I do tend to think that was the intent though. The Enterprise came home and was chosen to be the first to undergo the refit.
I'd say that "five years" was very specific and what the writers based this follow up on. Because it could've easily been "my years".
Hasn't logged a star hour in two and a half years, means Kirk hasn't been in space, in an official Starfleet capacity in 30 months. Which means the Enterprise was out there for a year before refit without Kirk in command.
I think there is room to play around, but I tend to go with the conventional reading of 2273 for TMP. Unless someone has a kickass story that contradicts it.
I also don't actually mind 2273 for TMP. There does seem to be... accelerated character development, but nothing I would see as completely implausible.
Well, for one, Kirk was an Admiral now with a desk job... he generally wouldn't be in space...
And I also don't see why the Enterprise had to be "out there" for a year. It came back and sat in a berth for -unknown time period- prior to the refit. There's no particular reason it immediately had to be pressed back into service.
It doesn't have to, but it seems a waste to leave a top-of-the-line ship sitting in drydock for a year.
Enterprise was a 30 year old ship by that point. Not particularly old by Starfleet standards, but by no means top-of-the-line anymore.
I do believe it (the Constitution-class) was still top of the line. If we take SNW into account with TOS, the ship has had numerous refits over 25 years. No reason to believe it wouldn't be top of the line.
The reason I would believe it's not the top-of-the-line was the fact that it was about to undergo a massive, 18-month long refit...
That doesn't really scream "top of the line" to me, otherwise... why spend 18 months refitting the ship if it's already top-of-the-line?
Yes and it's all just stories, so these choices are legitimate. The Enterprise bridge totally changed between Star Trek IV and V, then went from well lit and carpeted to dim and metallic for VI. What real-life purpose does the latter serve? None, it's a directorial choice. This is the same kind of thing, on a bigger scale.
I wouldn't mind if it was pushed forward a few years. Loved the Okuda Chronology and Encyclopedia back in the day, but it's time for an update with less reliance on supposition.
See, I think it looks like it enough to work. Same colors, silhouettes of items like tricorder, phaser, communicator. The expressed story purpose is demonstrably the same.
The Enterprise is fine and is treated as the same ship, both in universe and out of universe. It's enough for me in terms of close enough.
The shape of the refit, in contrast, is too different. The characters are too different. It all adds up.
Mileage will vary.
But they gave a reason for the refit ship looking different, not just "same ship. Always looked like that." And we also had no other frame of reference for what the Enterprise looked like in the 2270's.
It's ok to feel differently. I just don't entirely understand the reasoning.
Do you feel the same way about the characters from SNW to TOS? I've had a particularly tough time trying to reconcile SNW Chapel with TOS Chapel. They're supposed to be the same people but... they really don't seem to be.
Right. It's legitimate. It doesn't mean it's good.
That reason is not sufficient because it doesn't counter all the other changes that are being thrown at the audience in the brief time.
Strange New Worlds has a bonus of easing in to it for me. Pike returns to a refit after debating retiring. Various crewmembers are at different stages of their life. Even Pike at his most ruminant is not as pissy as Kirk in two years of being behind a desk.
If, and it's a big if, I can accept the motion picture refit, I have even less difficulty with the Strange New World Enterprise, especially since the ship was sent away as a preservation strategy during the Klingon war. So, I can accept a lot more than the TMP crumbs.
And, more importantly, the shape of the ship isn't essential to the story. The characters, their reactions, and interactions, are far more important and carry the weight of the show, not are the pylons on straight.
Reminds me of Sydney's reaction here:
Strange New Worlds has a bonus of easing in to it for me. Pike returns to a refit after debating retiring. Various crewmembers are at different stages of their life. Even Pike at his most ruminant is not as pissy as Kirk in two years of being behind a desk.[/quote]
They're different people though with different motivations. Pike's issues aren't really related to serving on a ship, he's just having a general existential crisis due to his vision of the future. Meanwhile, Kirk's issues in TMP are directly related to him having deep regret about being taken off of his ship, and that becomes a recurring thread through the movies.
I don't have any issue with that. Really, most of my character issues are from Chapel, some Spock, and now potentially Scotty. Mostly Chapel, but I need Spock to cut it with the whole "trying out being human" thing. They DO seem to be moving away from that, and there is a still a few years so it's not a big deal.
Scotty... this new Scotty really rubbed me the wrong way. It's only been an episode, so i'll have to let him do more but man this guy just doesn't feel anything like Scotty.
I don't really agree with that. For one, I consider the ship to be a character on the show and every bit as important as anyone else. Given that this is presented through a visual medium, the visuals are of utmost importance.
For instance, the arrival of Enterprise in DSC fell entirely flat for me. Actually worse than that, it was downright disappointing. The scene was clearly played for some nostalgia... which some see as a dirty word, but I see as adding emotion depth... so there's this big buildup to seeing THE Enterprise. The original. The one that started it all. Aaaaannnd. It's not it. It's similar to it. But the big, emotional moment of seeing the Enterprise again completely fell flat because it was wasn't.
And it's unbelievable to me.
That's ok. I don't like Scotty.
Yeah, a ship is not a character and I will never treat it as a character.
Ok. I didn't care for it because it was obvious were it was going. But, I don't want that big emotional moment. I want characters. So, it falling flat was as important to me as Pike's shoe size or hair stylist's name.
To each their own. Personally, I loved it. Damn near brought a tear to my eye. The 1701 has always been my favourite. She'll always be THE Enterprise to me and I fell in love with her new look the second I saw it. I also still adore her original 60's appearance. Loving both can be possible and both can still be THE Enterprise.
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