Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Reverend]

It really doesn't seem like popping a fleet right over the enemy's head with enough firepower to glass a planet is a big departure from standard Imperial doctrine. Rather, emerging at the outskirts of the system and skulking towards Hoth over hours or days using asteroids as cover seems like the unorthodox, even suspicious, plan. Plus, if Vader had done it his way, Luke would've already recovered and gone to Dagobah by the time they got there. I mean, he escaped anyway, so it didn't make a difference, but, still.

Just for fun: In my mind, Vader's plan would have been to make orbit undetected, land and go in personally with a small commando force to infiltrate the base, apprehend and extract Luke. Then the fleet bombards the surface, taking out the main generator and the ion cannon, thus leaving the base exposed and the rebels no means of running the blockade.

It's difficult to factor in the timeframe since we don't actually know how long it would have taken them to approach Hoth from the outer system, nor do we really know how long the Imperials sat in orbit before launching a ground assault. Given the Falcon managed to make it to the Anoat system in what seemed like no more than a day or two, the former should be considerably less.

While the latter could be anything from mere hours to several days. Mobilising and planning an assault & blockade takes time, as does a full evacuation of Echo base. Plus of course Luke may have taken a bit to recover, so it may end up being a wash.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I rewatched the film recently on blu-ray. It must have been the hype of seeing the film in a crowded theater, because I didn't enjoy this film the second time around nearly as much. In fact, I found myself bored through large portions of the movie. I just didn't care about.

Rose and Finn and their misadventures on Canto Bight.

Poe Damaron, Holdo and the anonymous members of the Resistance.

Hux the buffon. Maz Kanata's expostion skype call that sent Rose and Finn to Canto. Darth Smegol and whatever his intentions were.


The most interesting thing in the movie was watching Luke, Rey and Kylo interact, but even that took a while to get going. And when we did see more of Rey and Kylo interacting, it was as exciting as watching grass grow. Until they met on Snoke's ship.

This film needed a few things to be better.

1. More Luke Skywalker being proactive or just flaming the Jedi.

2. Better subplots for Finn, Poe and Rose. Something that has to do with the movie's theme or something that moved the plot of the movie forward.

3. Better chase music. Much of the film has a slow and boring chase scene, with the First Order playing cat and mouse with the Resistance. The First Order inexplicably spends days (given how long Rey spent on the planet with Luke) chasing them with the Resistance freighter just out of firing range of their cannons.

I don't think there is a specific track that plays for these parts of the movie. I know that TLJ copies much less of TESB's style, than TFA did of ANH's. However, comparing the chase music in Empire, to the score music during TLJ's chase. You really get a sense that something is missing to make the audience care.

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Hell, AOTC has pretty good chase music for it's scenes as well. So good, Williams reused the track for Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. During the chase for the golden snitch with Harry and Malfoy.

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With TLJ, they traded exciting for somber music and I don't think it worked.

 

[Set Harth]

Luke flamed the Jedi enough in the film. The film wouldn't have been objectively "better" with more of that. It just would have pleased those who like to see the Jedi flamed, including those who believe "the Jedi are the problem" and think the Jedi were the ones throwing the Force out of balance.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Why is the Resistance using the slowest bombers we've ever seen on screen in the franchise?

Because they wanted it to look like a scene out of a WWII movie. Honestly, I appreciate that touch. It feels like a very Lucas-ish choice.

What seems dumb is that they were flown in such a tight formation that crashing a single Tie-Fighter into it caused a chain reaction that destroyed all but one of them.

But then, there's a bunch of bad military decisions here, on both sides.
1.) Not sending some ships ahead at lightspeed and then doubling back to attack the Resistance fleet from both sides. (Granted, we don't know the minimum possible length of a lightspeed jump, but nothing indicated that this wasn't possible. If it's not possible, some exposition would be nice.)
2.) The First Order not realizing that the Resistance was heading for Crait when, in cosmic terms, they were right next door to Crait!
3.) If making a kamikaze run at a First Order ship is effective, why didn't they do that with all of the other ships that ran out of fuel and were destroyed?
4.) When they were still at D'Qar, the First Order Dreadnought should have attacked the Resistance ships first. The base on the planet ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

Some are attributed to the fact that Hux is a moron. I could understand Snoke putting up with this if he were perhaps merely recklessly bloodthirsty. But, no, he's a flat out MORON and ALL OF THE OTHER FLAG OFFICERS THINK SO TOO! Don't get me wrong, I think Hux is hilarious as a character but I just don't see why any of the actual military brass in the First Order put up with this petulant child making a fool of himself.

 

[fireproof78]

I think Hux is hilarious as a character but I just don't see why any of the actual military brass in the First Order put up with this petulant child making a fool of himself.

He is someone who can have you killed. First Order is not a democracy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Because they wanted it to look like a scene out of a WWII movie. Honestly, I appreciate that touch. It feels like a very Lucas-ish choice.

What seems dumb is that they were flown in such a tight formation that crashing a single Tie-Fighter into it caused a chain reaction that destroyed all but one of them.

Tight formations were the norm for the B-17, so that each bomber benefited from the defensive firepower of all surrounding bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress#Bomber_defense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_box

I agree that the WWII callback is nice, but I also agree with your last point, at least insofar as all but one bomber getting wiped out is tactically unfortunate (obviously). However, what we don't know is how likely that really was and whether it was just a lucky stroke by the First Order.

 

[Reverend]

I agree that the WWII callback is nice, but I also agree with your last point, at least insofar as all but one bomber getting wiped out is tactically unfortunate (obviously). However, what we don't know is how likely that really was and whether it was just a lucky stroke by the First Order.

Seems more like the latter to me since it didn't just crash into the ship, it crashed right into it's open bomb bay, sparking off the whole payload. That would be very difficult to plan for.
Battles are inherently chaotic and the Resistance forces already had the odds stacked against them, so it's impressive it worked at all.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Had mixed feelings on cinema viewing, but second time on blu-ray... what a fantastic movie! So much of what had concerned me previously disappeared as I started to truly appreciate the story that was actually being told. Terrific stuff.

 

[Prax]

That's a youtube fan theory video. Not even remotely close.

Didn't you know? Fan theories are always right

Uh oh! God forbid anyone entertain a fan theory! Nope, that's not canon!

Apostate!!

It really doesn't seem like popping a fleet right over the enemy's head with enough firepower to glass a planet is a big departure from standard Imperial doctrine. Rather, emerging at the outskirts of the system and skulking towards Hoth over hours or days using asteroids as cover seems like the unorthodox, even suspicious, plan. Plus, if Vader had done it his way, Luke would've already recovered and gone to Dagobah by the time they got there. I mean, he escaped anyway, so it didn't make a difference, but, still.

Ozzel tries very hard to dismiss the Hoth system as a possibility, to the objection of Piett, and even to Vader. He says they're smugglers. He's visibly troubled after Vader announces "To the Hoth System! ándale!"

Then he delibrately exits hyperspace close enough that the fleet was detected, and planetary shield powered up, apparently breaking protocol. None of this stuff about hiding in an asteroid field, or sneaking around for hours is mentioned in the film.

 

[Reverend]

Uh oh! God forbid anyone entertain a fan theory! Nope, that's not canon!

Apostate!!

You can have as many fan theories as you like, but if you're going to base your whole argument on one then you're going to have to back it up with something more substantial than "some bloke on youtube says so." Especially when it runs directly contrary to the text of the movie.

Ozzel was written and played as a pompous, ineffectual fool and *that* is why Vader executed him. This isn't even a little subjective since Vader said so as he was killing him.

 

[Prax]

It's open to interpration, like most speculative ideas and theories about movies. It's a visual medium and unlike a book, the character's thoughts and motivations rely heavily on subtext(which is heavily subjective to the viewer). Vader could just as easily have made the same remark because he suspected Ozzel of being a traitor.

If he was ineffectual, why would he rise to the position of commanding the largest, and most prestigious vessel in the fleet?

"base your whole argument on" I made a light-hearted comment about Ozzel, and said I was convinced by the arguments in the video.

This started with the silly argument that "Hux is bumbling fool, but so were x, y, and z"

Was Tarkin "inept"? Or the Piett, or the Emperor? No, they were not. They were defeated, yes, but they weren't incompetent. And Ozzel, even if he was simply an idiot, he quickly paid for it with his life immediately after being introduced to us. He wasn't a villain of the trilogy. He wasn't even an antagonist.

Hux is the new version of Tarkin, except the only thing they have in common, is that neither have a role to fill in the second movie.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's open to interpration

In the sense that it's open to interpretation whether C-3PO is actually a droid.

 

[Prax]

In the sense that it's open to interpretation whether C-3PO is actually a droid.

okay? Umm...no?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

okay? Umm...no?

Exactly. "No" is exactly the word I was looking for!

 

[Prax]

Let's try this:

"Ozzel sympathizes with the rebellion"
vs
"C3PO is not actually a droid"

Is that honest? "No"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Let's try this:

"Ozzel sympathizes with the rebellion"
vs
"C3PO is not actually a droid"

Is that honest? "No"

There's no evidence to support either proposition, which is really all we can say and which was my point. C-3PO was called a droid, and Admiral Ozzel was called an Imperial Admiral. C-3PO's droid-ship was never denied, and Ozzel was never called a Rebel sympathizer.

Not being Force-sensitive, unlike Vader, Ozzel had no reason to believe that the Rebels were on Hoth, and he had several reasons, which he cited or attempted to cite, to believe otherwise. Ozzel wasn't the only Imperial officer who lacked Vader's clairvoyance. Remember those Imperial officers who were sure that the Falcon had been destroyed in the asteroid field? Same deal.

Only Ozzel's incompetence was affirmed, and he was shown to be unwilling to follow Vader's orders without question. Ozzel wasn't the only high-ranking Imperial officer both to show disrespect for Vader and yet to remain ideologically all-in on the goal of defeating the Rebellion: see Motti (also Force-choked, though not to death).

 

[Prax]

One is factually wrong. We know that C3PO is a droid. We even know who built him, and we know there are other droids like him.

The other is a possibility, and has been known to happen in Star Wars, and depends on how you interpret his actions, and expressions.

You can prove that C3P0 is a droid. You cannot prove that Ozzel doesn't sympathize with the rebellion, or that he is incompetent.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Actually, 3PO was built from spare parts by Anakin. Without knowing the exact nature of all of those parts, not sure we can prove C-3PO is a droid, or if he's less, or actually more.

I'm gonna hold out for a special reveal in Episode XII*.

* - No, not really, except from a certain point of view.

 

[Reverend]

Was Tarkin "inept"? Or the Piett, or the Emperor?

I didn't say they were inept, I said they were arrogant. Those words do not mean the same thing. So basically you're just strawmanning it now.

And so long as we're pointing out logical fallacies; saying "You cannot prove that Ozzel doesn't sympathize with the rebellion" is an almost textbook 'appeal to ignorance' argument. Bravo!

 

[David cgc]

Then he delibrately exits hyperspace close enough that the fleet was detected, and planetary shield powered up, apparently breaking protocol. None of this stuff about hiding in an asteroid field, or sneaking around for hours is mentioned in the film.

Sure it is. It's the only way Vader's criticism makes sense. On the face of it, the explanation that "[Ozzel] felt that surprise was wiser" seems far more sensible. We've never seen any indication that ships in Star Wars are especially more detectable when emerging from hyperspace than they are any other time, and it seems weird that a half-dozen Star Destroyers, some of the least-steathy ships around, would be expected to sneak up on anything, and there's no reason intuitively to think that ships appearing out of nowhere at close range would give the Rebels more warning than ships approaching from a great distance.

Except...

"With all the meteor activity in this system, it's going to be difficult to spot approaching ships."

So that's the tactical situation that makes approaching from a distance practical in this case, that the Hoth System offers cover for approaching ships. Still, if you'll make allowances for my poetic choice of words, and ignore that "the Rebels are alerted to our presence" seems to imply Vader expected to be able to conduct their siege by stealth, it seems weird to me to dispute that slowing down further away makes the trip take longer.

As for coming out of hyperspace in attack range "breaking protocol," can you give any example of when an attacking force in Star Wars didn't emerge from hyperspace right on top of their target? Return of the Jedi, the Rebels pop out right in front of the Death Star, close enough that the Sanctuary Moon took up enough of the sky to give the Imperial Fleet enough cover to box them in before they saw them coming. The Force Awakens, likewise, no worries about Poe jumping his X-Wings too close to Starkiller (and, in fact, Han snuck in specifically by jumping in far, far too close, which isn't relevant, but is ironic). Rogue One, the Rebel fleet came out directly above the Shield Gate, no approaching from a distance in hopes the Imperials wouldn't notice all the warships flying in extremely slowly and close the shield, and Vader himself didn't seem to worry about alerting the Rebels to his presence when he jumped out close enough to run into them. The Last Jedi, a situation directly analogous to Hoth, had the First Order also arrive as close as possible to the target. Both times.