Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[cooleddie74]

I think he was just using brute force and slamming his fist against his robes and underclothing to stop the pain and the flow of blood from his bowcaster wound. It was just some loud foley that the sound editors used to reinforce that Kylo had taken a direct hit from Chewie's weapon fire and was bleeding profusely during his lightsaber battles with Finn and Rey.

 

[DWF]

Lightsaber have been to known to cauterize wounds in the past and so should the bowcaster. So maybe the moving around caused the wound to reopen.

 

[Set Harth]

Definitely some of this, he turned and maybe went further than he really intended initially when he gave into his pent-up emotions. His attack on the Separatists on Mustafar is completely in line with the character. He's been fighting a war with them for years, they've killed or tried to kill almost everyone he cared for, including his wife on multiple occasions. Anakin stopped restraining his emotions and this was the result.

The attack on the Jedi Temple, while a major and dramatically sudden turn, is the most realistic scene in all seven movies to me. Because of my real-life employment, I have some experience with workplace violence. Anakin is a pissed-off worker who returns to his employer and starts killing people. It's writ large, but Lucas nailed it. Once they snap, they usually attack indiscriminately and frequently kill (or at least try to kill) a lot of innocents who just also work there. They literally let go of reality during this moment. Add in the mob mentality with the clone troopers ramping up the emotions and I clearly see this playing out.

Once he's done that, he's gone down this path. How do you logically turn back? He would have to justify it and only way to do so would be to stay on this path. Even then, it still ultimately takes the death of Padme and his belief that he killed her to solidify the turn to the dark side in him.

I thought it was well done, just very nuanced.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Yeah I get that's what Lucas was going for, but even as much as Palpatine had manipulated and warped his mind over the years, I never bought Anakin being so corrupt or so angry at the end that he would actually believe wiping out all the Jedi and killing innocent kids was now somehow justified or the "correct" thing to do.

He probably didn't literally believe that deep down. But he was rationalizing the decisions he had made by that point. It was more of a "point of no return" type of thing. He knew there was no going back to his old life after what happened to Mace. He had thrown in with Palpatine and the soon-to-be Empire. There would be no room for the Jedi in the New Order, and there would be no going back.

Definitely some of this, he turned and maybe went further than he really intended initially when he gave into his pent-up emotions. His attack on the Separatists on Mustafar is completely in line with the character. He's been fighting a war with them for years, they've killed or tried to kill almost everyone he cared for, including his wife on multiple occasions. Anakin stopped restraining his emotions and this was the result.

The attack on the Jedi Temple, while a major and dramatically sudden turn, is the most realistic scene in all seven movies to me. Because of my real-life employment, I have some experience with workplace violence. Anakin is a pissed-off worker who returns to his employer and starts killing people. It's writ large, but Lucas nailed it. Once they snap, they usually attack indiscriminately and frequently kill (or at least try to kill) a lot of innocents who just also work there. They literally let go of reality during this moment. Add in the mob mentality with the clone troopers ramping up the emotions and I clearly see this playing out.

Once he's done that, he's gone down this path. How do you logically turn back? He would have to justify it and only way to do so would be to stay on this path. Even then, it still ultimately takes the death of Padme and his belief that he killed her to solidify the turn to the dark side in him.

I thought it was well done, just very nuanced.

I think maybe the real problem that davejames is having is that Anakin killed kids. I think that it took something away from the Darth Vader character for him. Darth Vader was cool as long as his chicking and killing were confined to rebel and imperial adults and combatants. The character could still be cool villain in davejames eyes. The think is Lucas wanted to show just how bad Anakin really became to become Vader so he showed him doing the unthinkable by killing the youngling Jedis. I always figured that since Anakin was quite possibly manufactured by Palpatine he really had no choice. Yeah Lucas said part of the choice to go to the dark side had to be Anakins but I think since he was created by a dark lord he didn't have much chance to stay in the light. In ROTS Anakin does say to Padame that something was wrong and that he wasn't the Jedi that he should be. Basically he knew he was losing grip on the light side but couldn't seem to stop.

 

[theenglish]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

 

[Dude]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

I'm not sure I follow. How does it undermine the strength of the character? Wouldn't Vader have been just as responsible for the child-killing, just by leading the attack and knowing the younglings would be killed? Ultimately, on or off screen, they had to be killed. They were a huge loose end in-universe and to the audience finally ended the discussion about whether Lucas had ever shown why the Empire was so evil that we should root against them.

 

[Ithekro]

Well they were hiding in the Council chambers. Where one would expect the Jedi Masters to be. That the younglings were there...just meant that Anakin was in the wrong place and the wrong time...and still needed to kill them all.

Maybe it was an effort to try to get Darth Vader from being a child's idol. By TPM there was an interview with Lucas were it was asked, why so many kids looked up to Vader. Lucas said something to the effect of, children tend to feel powerless, and who has more power than Darth Vader? At least most of the time we see him. In making Vader a child killer, maybe would remove some of those kids from idolizing him...but that really doesn't work. Darth Vader is probably the biggest icon Star Wars has. He's can be on anything and it will sell.

 

[Dude]

Well they were hiding in the Council chambers. Where one would expect the Jedi Masters to be. That the younglings were there...just meant that Anakin was in the wrong place and the wrong time...and still needed to kill them all.

Maybe it was an effort to try to get Darth Vader from being a child's idol. By TPM there was an interview with Lucas were it was asked, why so many kids looked up to Vader. Lucas said something to the effect of, children tend to feel powerless, and who has more power than Darth Vader? At least most of the time we see him. In making Vader a child killer, maybe would remove some of those kids from idolizing him...but that really doesn't work. Darth Vader is probably the biggest icon Star Wars has. He's can be on anything and it will sell.

Yeah, I've never understood that. Why in the hell is one of the cruelest villains in cinema considered so iconic. I mean, people buy Christmas ornaments of the character. Even in the OT, he was a brutal murderer. I just don't get it.

 

[theenglish]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

I'm not sure I follow. How does it undermine the strength of the character? Wouldn't Vader have been just as responsible for the child-killing, just by leading the attack and knowing the younglings would be killed? Ultimately, on or off screen, they had to be killed. They were a huge loose end in-universe and to the audience finally ended the discussion about whether Lucas had ever shown why the Empire was so evil that we should root against them.

I think my point is that not only is it a brutal act but it is also cowardly in the sense that the kids don't really stand a chance. It would have been in better taste and in showing how powerful Vader actually is to have Anakin take down several full Jedi Knights in actual combat before his final confrontation with Obi-Wan.

 

[TRON JA307020]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

Uh well he kind of was a child killer in ep IV. Did you think there was only adults on Aldderan? Vader was a huge piece of the puzzle to make sure that station was functional. He searched tooth and nail to get the plans to try and stop the rebels from destroying the Death Star. Vader was partly responsible for those deaths which included many children.

Like I said earlier I think a lot of fans like Vader and though he was cool in the OT. The character was probably even a little relatable which is why he was so popular. As long as his deeds were against adults on screen and most didn't think about the poor hapless men, women and yes children on Aldderan the character still seemed cool.The prequels probably ruined that for some fans but come on the character was supposed to be evil in the worst way. There is consolation for you though in the fact that Anakin was created by a dark lord by manipulation of medicholrians so much of what he did wasn't really his fault. He was created to be evil. In ROTJ Luke brought back out the part of him that was good and in that movie the good Anakin came back and Vader died.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It was also supposed to be symbolic. Heck, that one kid even looked a lot like Jake Lloyd.

 

[theenglish]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

Uh well he kind of was a child killer in ep IV. Did you think there was only adults on Aldderan? Vader was a huge piece of the puzzle to make sure that station was functional. He searched tooth and nail to get the plans to try and stop the rebels from destroying the Death Star.

Like I said earlier I think a lot of fans like Vader and though he was cool in the OT. The character was probably even a little relatable which is why he was so popular. As long as his deed were against adults on screen and most didn't think about the poor hapless men, women and yes children on Aldderan the character still seemed cool.The prequels probably ruined that for some fans but come on the character was supposed to be evil in the worst way. There is consolation for you though in the fact that Anakin was created by a dark lord by manipulation of medicholrians so much of what he did wasn't really his fault. He was created to be evil. In ROTJ Luke brought back out the part of him that was good and in that movie the good Anakin came back and Vader died.

I tried to clarify in my above post, but I'm talking more of the narrative choice in impact to the story rather than actual morality here. Anakin, rather than becoming a Badass evil Sith (as he would have if he were shown killing full Jedis) instead becomes this cowardly killer (by taking out innocents who can't fight back). How can even the Imperial Clones respect that? "While they were off killing the actual Jedi, this Vader guy slaughters a temple filled with children?"

 

[Dude]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

I'm not sure I follow. How does it undermine the strength of the character? Wouldn't Vader have been just as responsible for the child-killing, just by leading the attack and knowing the younglings would be killed? Ultimately, on or off screen, they had to be killed. They were a huge loose end in-universe and to the audience finally ended the discussion about whether Lucas had ever shown why the Empire was so evil that we should root against them.

I think my point is that not only is it a brutal act but it is also cowardly in the sense that the kids don't really stand a chance. It would have been in better taste and in showing how powerful Vader actually is to have Anakin take down several full Jedi Knights in actual combat before his final confrontation with Obi-Wan.

I see your point now, thanks. And I would almost certainly have enjoyed seeing the duels you describe, a few random lightsaber duels would have been cool, never been done (e.g. all of the lightsaber battles have been between major characters in a central point to the plot).

Nonetheless, the concept of Vader as redeemable doesn't show up until ROTJ and, when I was a kid, many of us considered ROTJ weaker than the other two OT movies because the redemption arc seemed so unbelievable. I mean, Vader was a truly awful person who did despicable things. When the PT came out, in some ways it vindicated ROTJ. But showing the true depravity of Anakin's fall was necessary, I think, to prevent undermining ANH and TESB. In the end, Vader as true villain exists for episodes III-V.

 

[TRON JA307020]

My problem with that was also that it was a really cowardly thing to do for the future Darth Vader. All the Clones are taking out the Jedi and so Anakin gets relegated to slaughtering the innocent children? The jedi temple scene would have been much more powerful if the clones had taken out the children and Anakin was given some scenes taking down some full fledged jedi knights.

I know we want to show how evil he's become but it also undermines the strength of the character and Vader forever becomes a child-killer.

Uh well he kind of was a child killer in ep IV. Did you think there was only adults on Aldderan? Vader was a huge piece of the puzzle to make sure that station was functional. He searched tooth and nail to get the plans to try and stop the rebels from destroying the Death Star.

Like I said earlier I think a lot of fans like Vader and though he was cool in the OT. The character was probably even a little relatable which is why he was so popular. As long as his deed were against adults on screen and most didn't think about the poor hapless men, women and yes children on Aldderan the character still seemed cool.The prequels probably ruined that for some fans but come on the character was supposed to be evil in the worst way. There is consolation for you though in the fact that Anakin was created by a dark lord by manipulation of medicholrians so much of what he did wasn't really his fault. He was created to be evil. In ROTJ Luke brought back out the part of him that was good and in that movie the good Anakin came back and Vader died.

I tried to clarify in my above post, but I'm talking more of the narrative choice in impact to the story rather than actual morality here. Anakin, rather than becoming a Badass evil Sith (as he would have if he were shown killing full Jedis) instead becomes this cowardly killer (by taking out innocents who can't fight back). How can even the Imperial Clones respect that? "While they were off killing the actual Jedi, this Vader guy slaughters a temple filled with children?"

Vader didn't do a lot of "Badass" stuff in the original trilogy. He choked a lot of Star Destroyer officers and had a 3 lightsaber battles one against a older Obi Wan and two with Luke who was a inexperienced Jedi. The character was never a huge badass killing people that were his equal. He always had the upper and stronger hand. Only when he went back to the light side did he kill a supposed stronger individual which was of course Palpatine. I think its the loss of Vader for some fans anyway of being a badass that would kill but maybe just maybe probably wouldn't kill children when thinking about the OT. The new movie is pretty much just the same. Kylo is on the side that destroyed 5 planets filled with guess what Children. Sorry but Vader was a party to mass genocide in the OT and so is Kylo. No badassery anywhere there.

 

[Dude]

Uh well he kind of was a child killer in ep IV. Did you think there was only adults on Aldderan? Vader was a huge piece of the puzzle to make sure that station was functional. He searched tooth and nail to get the plans to try and stop the rebels from destroying the Death Star.

Like I said earlier I think a lot of fans like Vader and though he was cool in the OT. The character was probably even a little relatable which is why he was so popular. As long as his deed were against adults on screen and most didn't think about the poor hapless men, women and yes children on Aldderan the character still seemed cool.The prequels probably ruined that for some fans but come on the character was supposed to be evil in the worst way. There is consolation for you though in the fact that Anakin was created by a dark lord by manipulation of medicholrians so much of what he did wasn't really his fault. He was created to be evil. In ROTJ Luke brought back out the part of him that was good and in that movie the good Anakin came back and Vader died.

I tried to clarify in my above post, but I'm talking more of the narrative choice in impact to the story rather than actual morality here. Anakin, rather than becoming a Badass evil Sith (as he would have if he were shown killing full Jedis) instead becomes this cowardly killer (by taking out innocents who can't fight back). How can even the Imperial Clones respect that? "While they were off killing the actual Jedi, this Vader guy slaughters a temple filled with children?"

Vader didn't do a lot of "Badass" stuff in the original trilogy. He choked a lot of Star Destroyer officers and had a 3 lightsaber battles one against a older Obi Wan and two with Luke who was a inexperienced Jedi. The character was never a huge badass killing people that were his equal. He always had the upper and stronger hand. Only when he went back to the light side did he kill a supposed stronger individual which was of course Palpatine. I think its the loss of Vader for some fans anyway of being a badass that would kill but maybe just maybe probably wouldn't kill children when thinking about the OT. The new movie is pretty much just the same. Kylo is on the side that destroyed 5 planets filled with guess what Children. Sorry but Vader was a party to mass genocide in the OT and so is Kylo. No badassery anywhere there.

Other than Dooku in their second duel in ROTS, did Anakin/Vader ever defeat anyone who was his equal in a fair fight?

He gets his ass handed to him by Dooku in AOTC and Kenobi in ROTS, fights an older Kenobi essentially to a draw in ANH, defeats a clearly inferior Luke in TESB, is defeated by Luke in ROTJ, and kills a caught off-guard Sidious in ROTJ.

Perhaps this is the point theenglish is trying to make? That showing some powerful sword play in the Jedi Temple would have underscored the skill of the character?

 

[Mr Light]

I love ROTS, but this is a good point. I would have rather seen Anakin fighting adult Jedi and showing some skill and effort. He could have just watched the Clonetroopers killing the kids and turned his head away.

 

[davejames]

I think maybe the real problem that davejames is having is that Anakin killed kids. I think that it took something away from the Darth Vader character for him. Darth Vader was cool as long as his chicking and killing were confined to rebel and imperial adults and combatants. The character could still be cool villain in davejames eyes.

Oh please. I have no trouble buying that Vader ultimately becomes someone who massacres children and entire families in his role as Palpatine's enforcer and right hand man.

I just don't buy it happening as quickly and out of nowhere as it seems to happen in ROTS. Or that all his time serving with the Jedi-- and watching them save and protect people and be generally good and honorable people-- could be so quickly and easily tossed aside as he commits himself to Palpatine and allows them all to be slaughtered.

And of course if you factor in the now canon TCW, where Anakin actually comes across even more mature and adult than the whiny kid in the movies, then that turn starts to feel even more abrupt and out of character.

 

[Ithekro]

We see his take out a few Jedi in a holorecording from the Temple when Obi-wan finds out it was Anakin that betrayed them. This includes one of their duelist masters and two padawans at the same time.

By Rebels we see him toying with basically two padawans in an effort to get them to flee back to the Rebel fleet so he can go hunting. The best they manage to do his drop a walker on him...and that only slows him down for thirty seconds. We'll see what happens when Vader goes up against his old padawan, Ahsoka, later this year.

Anakin is pretty good in the Clone Wars. Though most sword fights end with the villain running away. He never quite can take on Dooku, as that was Palpatine's test to see if Aankin is ready to become a Sith. He never fights Grievous in the Clone Wars, as it was established that the first time they meet face to face is in Revenge of the Sith.

 

[theenglish]

We see his take out a few Jedi in a holorecording from the Temple when Obi-wan finds out it was Anakin that betrayed them. This includes one of their duelist masters and two padawans at the same time.

By Rebels we see him toying with basically two padawans in an effort to get them to flee back to the Rebel fleet so he can go hunting. The best they manage to do his drop a walker on him...and that only slows him down for thirty seconds. We'll see what happens when Vader goes up against his old padawan, Ahsoka, later this year.

Anakin is pretty good in the Clone Wars. Though most sword fights end with the villain running away. He never quite can take on Dooku, as that was Palpatine's test to see if Aankin is ready to become a Sith. He never fights Grievous in the Clone Wars, as it was established that the first time they meet face to face is in Revenge of the Sith.

Right, we see the holorecording, but that is the equivalent of telling not showing in fiction writing. As for Rebels and The Clone Wars--it sounds like there is something there--but the movies should be structured so that one can watch them and get the complete story without having to see the supporting material.

ROTS could have been structured with the first half of the movie set in the final battle of the Clone Wars while Palpatine was manipulating his Master Plan, and we could have seen Anakin's true conflict in the heat of the various skirmishes. This would have made his final confrontation with Grievous and Dooku all the more powerful and served as a DIRECT lead in to the final act where Palpatine makes his move and Anakin converts to the Dark Side. As with Clones, the pacing and execution of ROTS is way off.

 

[Ithekro]

That would be Lucas being good at W, X, and Z, but now so good at Y. "Why" is where he has problems.

He's great at knowing how to compose a shot. How the audience will react to a shot. Cinematic direction for camera movements and scene changes. Lighting, and world building. As well as pushing film making technology. He's not good at getting a why for what his character are doing. Nor getting consistent emotions out of actors (though that could just be a fault in directing style). Clone Wars shows what happens when you have other people doing things with Lucas as an advisor and teacher. Rebels shows how those people progress after Lucas leaves.