Star Wars The Clone Wars Season Six

[cooleddie74]

All the context and background information in that galaxy wouldn't make many fans accept nor like the concept of midichlorians, but that's a different thread topic altogether.

I didn't say I liked it, nor that I expected you specifically to accept it, just that given the circumstances, some context was preferable than none at all.

No, that wasn't directed and you and I didn't want to imply I'm the big opponent and hater of midichlorians that some fans are. I was just stating the fact that many fans of the Lucas universe detest them and act as if they're some sort of borderline libel or state treason that George should be dragged out on the carpet for. "George urinated all over my childhood when he invented that concept! Now the Force isn't cool anymore!" So forth and so on.

Me? I'm not the biggest fan but I accept them. I've heard much stupider concepts within the sci-fi/fantasy universes and franchises that I've followed during my life. I'd go about the biochemistry and origins of the Force differently than George decided to with Episode I but I can't muster more than some jokey comments about the things. Some fans have been genuinely upset and even Nerdraged by the very concept and that's just far too much energy devoted to something that they can't change and quite frankly isn't as bad as they like to make it out to be.

 

[Reverend]

^Apologies, I misread your reply.

Personally I think the midichlorians just aren't a terribly good way of accounting for how force users...urrr...use the force. Bit of an odd example, but it reminds me of people who claim that the "aliens seeded life on Earth" theory is a valid way to account for the origins of life. It doesn't, it just passes the proverbial buck.

"How do Jedi and Sith access the force?"
"With midiclorians!"
"...OK, so how do midiclorians access the force?"
"...umm....hey look! A rabbit frog is doing slap stick!"

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, to be fair it's not the best explanation for how the Force works and is accessed by users. I won't lie - when the Force was portrayed as a vast supernatural, mystical energy field that permeated the entire universe and wasn't explored in any great and minute detail it was a much more fascinating and eerie concept, but the introduction of the midichlorian into the Lucas canon wasn't much more than a minor irritant because I'd hoped they'd have tackled it somewhat differently.

Microscopic bugs in the bloodstream are fine by me so long as the power, majesty and at least some of the great mysteries of the Force are preserved within that universe.

 

[Reverend]

I don't think they detract from any of the mystery since as I demonstrated, they don't really explain anything about the force anyway. To me they're a non-explanation.

I would have been totally OK with them if they were used purely as a mechanism for detecting and (for lack of a better term) grading force potentiality in individuals.

Like say for the sake of argument, if midichlorians were simply microorganisms that were attracted to force users, maybe even feed off the force itself in small amounts, like remora fish. So the more force sensitive a person is, the higher ratio of midichlorians in their blood stream and so they serve as a convenient measuring tool. That I think would have served the purpose of the scene and still allowed for the element of mystery.

What this new episode seems to imply is that the cosmic force itself somehow created all life in the galaxy on that planet and specifically set up midichlorians as the intermediaries between the tangible and the intangible. I sort of get it, but it still feels a bit off.

Either way, it's more than what we got in TPM and actually ties in better with the concept of Anakin's "immaculate conception." The "will of the force" is something often mentioned but never really addressed, but it does indicate that there's a form of consciousness--perhaps this cosmic gestalt wellspring that makes it so hard to maintain one's identity after death--behind certain events. It sounds just like that kind of amoral force of nature to create a being that will be both Jedi & Sith and is destined to destroy them both to restore balance AND (if you'll pardon the expression) plant the seeds of rebirth in the form of his offspring.

...But I digress.

 

[Set Harth]

It sounds just like that kind of amoral force of nature to create a being that will be both Jedi & Sith and is destined to destroy them both to restore balance AND (if you'll pardon the expression) plant the seeds of rebirth in the form of his offspring.

The Jedi aren't the ones unbalancing the Force; the Sith are. Destroying Jedi is just something Sith want to do, not something that promotes balance. Quite the opposite. Besides, Anakin only killed some younglings and some masters in the temple. The bulk of the killing was done by some guys who looked like Jango Fett.

The cosmic force seems to be synonymous with the unifying force, a term used in the previously published materials.

The term "Cosmic Force" has also been used in published materials:

Had he been, for the length of a heartbeat, connected to the greater, unifying gestalt that the wisest of the Masters called the Cosmic Force?

 

[Mr Light]

Ok, I'm gonna have to start "blind posting" in this thread until I finish all the episodes I'm going to watch one a morning and string 'em out!

I was not intending to do this, but these new episodes are reawakening my love for this show, and with HD quality availability of all the episodes for free... dammit, I'm going to have to rewatch the entire series now!!! I only own Season One so I've only seen 4/5 of the episodes a single time.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

By deduction it was obvious that the Kaminoans would have to be involved in some shady dealings with the clone army and their programming

It didn't have to be the case; in other words, the EU scenario worked well enough. It was just constantly on the defensive due to fans complaining about the clones' amoral behavior.

We were basically told everything we needed to know in AOTC. The clones were conditioned ( and genetically modified ) to be receptive to orders in general. In the EU version, if anything was "programmed" by the Kaminoans, it was loyalty to the Republic, including to the person of the Supreme Chancellor as leader of the Republic. As an "army for the Republic" the clones needed to be relied upon to follow orders emanating from the Republic chain of command. Once that loyalty is established, Order 66 can be slotted in later without any necessary complicity on the part of the Kaminoans, and it seems relevant that ROTS showed us that Palpatine had a secure comlink connection to the clone commanders.

That said, I don't find TCW's version to be objectionable in itself.

It wasn't that the clone's programming included absolute obedience to orders from the Republic leadership that I thought made the Kaminoans a little suspicious, it was that none of the clones even hesitated or expressed regret about killing their Jedi friends and comrades, at least during the Order 66 montage during RotS (not the EU, where some did).

One second the clone commander is handing Obi-Wan his dropped lightsaber and joking around with him, and the next second he's ordering his death without even a hint of misgiving. That indicated to me that there was something more at work than just an innate need to follow orders, and along with other things during AotC made me somewhat suspicious of the Kaminoans. I just didn't figure on this level of direct involvement with the Sith.

 

[DarthPipes]

Agreed. It makes sense when you think about it. If you give clones free will, a lot of them wouldn't have gone through with Order 66. Having the knowledge repressed in the clones minds also makes sense as it prevents the knowledge from slipping out or a friendly clone warning the Jedi about it.

I was hoping that Rex would have refused the Order 66 command but this episodes pretty much confirms he won't be able to.

Interesting bit...the Jar Jar two-parter was written by Jonathan Rinzler, who is currently adapting The Star Wars series for Dark Horse and has done all those Making of Star Wars books.

 

[Mr Light]

2X7 Crisis at the Heart

This was a good serial and definitely the best Padme centric story they ever did. Sidious' plot to take control of the banks was quite clever and well done.

I do feel that the Anakin/Padme resolution was way too easy and basically took place off screen, though. She basically asked for a separation in the previous episode because he was an abusive controlling asshole, but in this episode it's all I'm so sorry Anakin! Then again, I guess this does fit the messed up superficial nature of their relationship as established in the movies. She seems to be drawn to him as a bad boy and a hero and not for true love. They have almost nothing in common, and she blindly ignores his fascist political views.

I loved when Dooku forced Padme to kill an innocent politician for no reason whatsoever. I thought he was trying to frame her to spark the conflict but apparently it was just to be a dick. That was ice cold!

 

[Reverend]

It sounds just like that kind of amoral force of nature to create a being that will be both Jedi & Sith and is destined to destroy them both to restore balance AND (if you'll pardon the expression) plant the seeds of rebirth in the form of his offspring.

The Jedi aren't the ones unbalancing the Force; the Sith are. Destroying Jedi is just something Sith want to do, not something that promotes balance. Quite the opposite. Besides, Anakin only killed some younglings and some masters in the temple. The bulk of the killing was done by some guys who looked like Jango Fett.

From a certain point of view...


By all accounts the Jedi lost their way way before Sidious started cooking up the endgame and if you want to take an objective viewpoint, since the founders of the Sith order were themselves Jedi, then yes, the Jedi are the cause of the imbalance. Indeed, the Jedi and Sith appear to have been chasing each others tales for millennia, dragging the rest of the galaxy from extreme to another across countless conflicts and an endless body count.

It may not seem fair to wipe the Jedi out, but like I said, from an amoral cosmic force of nature POV, there is a certain cold logic and symmetry to it. Better to wipe the slate clean than to start the merry-go-round all over again.

It wasn't that the clone's programming included absolute obedience to orders from the Republic leadership that I thought made the Kaminoans a little suspicious, it was that none of the clones even hesitated or expressed regret about killing their Jedi friends and comrades, at least during the Order 66 montage during RotS (not the EU, where some did).

One second the clone commander is handing Obi-Wan his dropped lightsaber and joking around with him, and the next second he's ordering his death without even a hint of misgiving. That indicated to me that there was something more at work than just an innate need to follow orders, and along with other things during AotC made me somewhat suspicious of the Kaminoans. I just didn't figure on this level of direct involvement with the Sith.

I don't think they actually knew they were working for the Sith specifically. Remember that the whole point of the Sifo Dias arc was to learn that Dooku killed him off so he could impersonate him to the Kaminoans. My read is that they thought they were working for the Jedi council under a strict security contract. Maybe Dooku told them that the purpose of the chip was to guard against renegades, even among the other council members, so *absolutely nobody* may know the bio-chip and the order 66 protocol even existed.

I can't help but wonder what other protocols are in there. Does Order 65 mean "kill all Senators?" Is Order 47 ""kill all Kaminoans"? Palpatine must have placed all sorts for safeguards in for any number of eventualities.

 

[Set Harth]

By all accounts the Jedi lost their way

The "crimes" of the Jedi are not Force-unbalancing stuff: attachment to the body politic of the Republic; arrogance; being set in their ways. All of these are IMO thoroughly understandable given the circumstances.

if you want to take an objective viewpoint, since the founders of the Sith order were themselves Jedi, then yes, the Jedi are the cause of the imbalance.

That's an... "interesting" viewpoint. Well, luckily those Jedi are all long dead by the time of the films, while the act of killing film-era Jedi won't exactly do anything to prevent the Sith order from emerging in the distant past.

It may not seem fair to wipe the Jedi out, but like I said, from an amoral cosmic force of nature POV, there is a certain cold logic and symmetry to it.

It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users; so much for logic. The balance of the Force does not require any such symmetry in the ranks of Force adepts, including the trivial and decidedly unhelpful symmetry of 0 = 0.

Better to wipe the slate clean than to start the merry-go-round all over again.

So I take it the survival of Luke and the reestablishment of the order under his guidance is to be construed as a bad thing? His students could always go dark, you know. Better to wipe the slate clean and have no Force-users at all than to start the merry-go-round all over again.

Remember that the whole point of the Sifo Dias arc was to learn that Dooku killed him off so he could impersonate him to the Kaminoans.

Dooku was known to the Kaminoans as "Lord Tyranus", not as Sifo-Dyas.

 

[dahj]

I can't help but wonder what other protocols are in there. Does Order 65 mean "kill all Senators?" Is Order 47 ""kill all Kaminoans"? Palpatine must have placed all sorts for safeguards in for any number of eventualities.

Actually, Order 65 is essentially "detain and if necessary kill the Chancellor".

Palpatine didn't plan on using the clones for other eventualities, he had one endgame and he made sure that it happened.
All the other 149 protocols were there to mask the only important one, Order 66.

 

[cooleddie74]

Order 66 just makes more sense and seemed more diabolical and chilling all along when you saw it as an implanted "switch," one that once flipped would turn easygoing, friendly Clones (at least to their Jedi commanders if not their enemies on the battlefield) into determined, brute killers. I understand the argument some make that "it's more interesting from a dramatic standpoint if the Clones receive Order 66 and then question and fight it," but that would be one incredibly unreliable and sloppy piece of programming to introduce into the Grand Army of the Republic. A protocol that you won't even activate for almost a decade and a half and when you do won't be followed by many Clones, who'll rebel and fight the instructions?

Nah, it's just more sinister and makes more logical sense for a loyal commander like Cody who was friends with Obi-Wan for over three years through some of the worst battles of the wars to suddenly have an internal switch flipped and become an angry executioner issuing the order to kill his good friend, comrade-in-arms and commanding general. Otherwise wouldn't he question the Chancellor's order to coldly execute Obi-Wan and even protest? Who wouldn't if they possessed free will and exercised complete control over their decisions in that situation? Some fans might feel it's more dramatic and interesting for half the Clone Army to rebel and refuse their orders from Palpatine, but where does that leave the Jedi Purge and the greater storyline? And what does it say about the Sith Lords and the Kaminoans that the best they could do with their collective intelligence and cunning was a protocol that wouldn't be needed for years and years and then when it was actually activated a lot of Clones wouldn't even bother to follow it?

 

[DarthPipes]

2X7 Crisis at the Heart

This was a good serial and definitely the best Padme centric story they ever did. Sidious' plot to take control of the banks was quite clever and well done.

I do feel that the Anakin/Padme resolution was way too easy and basically took place off screen, though. She basically asked for a separation in the previous episode because he was an abusive controlling asshole, but in this episode it's all I'm so sorry Anakin! Then again, I guess this does fit the messed up superficial nature of their relationship as established in the movies. She seems to be drawn to him as a bad boy and a hero and not for true love. They have almost nothing in common, and she blindly ignores his fascist political views.

I loved when Dooku forced Padme to kill an innocent politician for no reason whatsoever. I thought he was trying to frame her to spark the conflict but apparently it was just to be a dick. That was ice cold!

Dooku wracked up some badass points this season.

Agreed that the Anakin/Padme stuff needed a stronger resolution.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Order 66 just makes more sense and seemed more diabolical and chilling all along when you saw it as an implanted "switch," one that once flipped would turn easygoing, friendly Clones (at least to their Jedi commanders if not their enemies on the battlefield) into determined, brute killers. I understand the argument some make that "it's more interesting from a dramatic standpoint if the Clones receive Order 66 and then question and fight it," but that would be one incredibly unreliable and sloppy piece of programming to introduce into the Grand Army of the Republic. A protocol that you won't even activate for almost a decade and a half and when you do won't be followed by many Clones, who'll rebel and fight the instructions?

That wasn't what I was saying, though.

I'm fine with the act of a switch flipping and having them coldly take out their former friends and comrades without a second thought from a dramatic standpoint. My point was that that kind of dispassionate action is indicative of a greater level of programming than simply "follow all orders from the Republic leadership unconditionally."

One can follow orders while not liking it. Doing it coldly like sociopaths indicates that all feelings of loyalty and rapport with the Jedi were tossed aside the moment the switch was flipped too, because no one even hesitated or felt guilty. Which is why I was always a bit suspicious of the Kaminoans from the first time I saw all the prequels. That's all my point was. That, and the fact that this arc showed that their betrayal was even greater than I had previously suspected.

 

[cooleddie74]

Oh, that was just a general statement about my own feelings on the matter, not specifically directed at any of your comments. I'd been reading a slew of differing opinions about Order 66 during the past few days and just wanted to state my own opinion about the protocol and its execution. I don't have any beef with your take at all.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Oh, gotcha.

 

[DarthPipes]

Dave Filoni thanks fans for their support of The Clone Wars and offers some sketches of storylines they never got to do. No spoilers but I would avoid the comments section if you haven't seen all of Season 6 yet.

http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/2014/03/10/to-fans-of-star-wars-the-clone-wars-thank-you/

 

[Set Harth]

Some fans might feel it's more dramatic and interesting for half the Clone Army to rebel and refuse their orders from Palpatine, but where does that leave the Jedi Purge and the greater storyline? And what does it say about the Sith Lords and the Kaminoans that the best they could do with their collective intelligence and cunning was a protocol that wouldn't be needed for years and years and then when it was actually activated a lot of Clones wouldn't even bother to follow it?

I don't think anyone would have thought it was better if half the army rebelled. I would have leaned more in the direction of seeing the clones depicted as essentially amoral creatures by design. Given what little we see of them in the films, that wouldn't have been inconsistent, but once TCW had spent so much time humanizing them I guess that was no longer an option.

 

[cooleddie74]

You obviously don't speak with some of the fans I do. I've heard them express that opinion. "A mass rebellion and conflicted feelings upon receiving the order would have made things more dramatically interesting than some on-off switch programmed deep into them that they can't control. That's too easy and simple." Your own mileage will, of course, vary due to the eclectic nature of the SW fanbase.