Star Wars Rebels Season Four (spoilers)

[Ithekro]

Several Star Destroyers have had their hanger decks exploded by these Rebels, from the first episode onwards...sometimes pinching a hole through the top of the hull as well. We've seen one spinning out of control after one of their own probe droids self destructed inside the ship.

Also that construction platform that Hera hyperspaced the U-wing through had its hanger and everything in it utterly wrecked last week.

As for the X-wings....nope, suddenly there here. We've not seen a single one in this series until this episode. We started to see U-wings this season at Yavin, with Saw, and on Lothal. But X-wings....just there.

The Imperial Ace's TIE Interceptor had a lot of kill marks on it. Many looked like A-wings and Y-wings, but some also looked like X-wings, thought those could have been Z-95s left over from the Clone Wars.

Lucasfilm is currently suggesting that the X-wing was a Clone Wars era fighter that just didn't enter service by the time the war ended. Like say an American P-80 jet fighter in World War II.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I have a feeling the wolves want Caleb Dume to save Lothal.

That's a good theory. Taking priority over saving Hera, perhaps?

 

[B.J.]

I'll admit, that opening battle made me absolutely giddy!

A refreshing bit of credible space physics in a franchise that usually ignores it: Hera rotating her X-Wing around its center of mass to fire backward at the TIE while still moving forward. Since spacecraft don't have to worry about lift or drag or gravity, they can coast and orient themselves in any direction, in contrast to the usual Star Wars assumption that they need to thrust forward and turn by banking like aerial fighters.

That actually reminded me more of the Cobra maneuver (more specifically, Pugachev's Cobra) that can be performed by some modern fighter aircraft.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

A refreshing bit of credible space physics in a franchise that usually ignores it

Not so much ignores it, so much as electively eschews it, as it has since the original film, favoring instead its characteristic fantasy resembling aerial combat..... IN SPACE! It's a conscious choice by the auteurs to eschew "credible space physics" so "ignores" can't be the right word.

 

[Christopher]

I was informed on another site that Hera's maneuver was actually based on the aircraft dogfighting maneuver of deliberately stalling a plane by pointing its nose upward. So it wasn't real space physics after all. No surprise there, I guess.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Heh. Maybe they'll also narrow the spread of the X-wings s-foils because of the loss of Phoenix squadron?

Lock S-foils in attack-on-canon position.

I get that all of the stylistic changes are McQuarrie-inspired artistic license, and that we're meant to assume that these are "real" TIE-fighters and star destroyers and X-Wings as they will appear in the movies in short order, but I think there's a little leeway to think that there may be some slight modifications that could be implemented fleetwide to match them up perfectly. The Ghost as we see her in Rogue One is pretty well-spot-on in terms of proportions.

OTOH, should Rebels end with some sort of linking scenes to Rogue One and potentially the other movies (wouldn't it be fantastic to see Hera raise a glass to fallen comrades while celebrating amongst the Ewoks on Endor?), it would not be sensible to update all the CGI models just for the sake of it...

Mark

 

[Christopher]

I don't need to explain slight changes in the depiction of spacecraft, any more than I need to explain why the universe changes from a cartoon to live action. I mean, if something is a cartoon, then naturally it's meant as an artistic representation rather than literal reality.

 

[Stephen!]

and that we're meant to assume that these are "real" TIE-fighters and star destroyers and X-Wings as they will appear in the movies

It's a wonder the Rebellion even had any X-Wings left by the time they reached A New Hope.

 

[Tallguy]

Lucasfilm is currently suggesting that the X-wing was a Clone Wars era fighter that just didn't enter service by the time the war ended. Like say an American P-80 jet fighter in World War II.

Rebels: Bringing it back to the classics. That was the way (minus the details) that the story was always told in 1977: The Rebellion's fighters were really old tech. (I always hated the back story in the West End RPG.)

Since I had just watched Spark of Rebellion again I got chills when the episode ended on the same road where the series began.

 

[Reverend]

Lucasfilm is currently suggesting that the X-wing was a Clone Wars era fighter that just didn't enter service by the time the war ended. Like say an American P-80 jet fighter in World War II.

IIRC the Rogue One Ultimate Guide mentioned something about this. The basic gist being that they were ready by the end of the war, but were mothballed when Sienar got the contract to build it's much cheaper TIEs instead.

It makes sense considering that while still undergoing a massive military build-up in the post-war years, the Empire was switching from a war footing to an occupation footing. They didn't need such robust and effective fighters since they were no longer fighting overwhelming numbers of droid ships, just the odd hold-outs, pirates and militia groups.

One could apply the same logic to the difference in effectiveness and competence of Clone Troopers vs. Stormtroopers. The former were bred specifically to win a war; they're soldiers. The latter are mostly conscripted (heavily) militarised police. Bit of a genius move on Palpatine's part to make his own military so weak that the only way it could be effectively turned against him is if a large proportion of them were turned. And the way the command structure is set up to have the Moffs, Admirals and Governors constantly at each other's throats, no single person could amass enough influence without the other's eating them alive.

Anyway, as for the X-Wings not being visible at Yavin prior to this: 1) Their jumping in is meant to be a nice "hell yeah!" surprise for the audience and 2) the Massassi temple is fecking *huge* with multiple levels converted into stacked hanger decks. All we've really seen of the facilities in Rebels so far is the landing/staging grounds outside. They could have had dozens of X-Wings inside this whole time.
Indeed if they only recently acquired them it's likely they needed quite a bit of work in the maintenance bays before the deck crew could get them all up and running, especially after spending the best part of of two decades gathering dust.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

It's a wonder the Rebellion even had any X-Wings left by the time they reached A New Hope.

For all we know, they didn't really have that many. Assuming we don't see them en masse again for this season of Rebels, it's entirely possible that they only EVER had 3-4 squadrons worth of them. We see a dozen or so here (they said there were 24 ships that came in at the top of the episode), which seemed divided equally between X-wings and Y-wings. These were all lost. At Scarif, there was Red and Green squadrons (plus Gold of course); Green squadron was pretty well all lost, plus a chunk of Red (including the hapless Red Five).

We're left to assume that everyone left regrouped at Yavin for the last stand against the Death Star, recognizing that all the capital ships were lost or captured at Scarif or were otherwise indisposed. We subsequently don't see X-wings in any significant numbers until the Battle of Endor, and even then it's suggested that the squadrons by that point were of mixed composition, highlighting the notion that they were pulling out all the stops and assembling fighter groups with whatever they could lay their hands on.

As counter-fandom as it may sound, it's believable that IF the X-wings are fighters obtained in one batch around the fourth season of Rebels, that this is ALL they had between that point and the end of Episode VI. They're iconic and special, and there simply may not have been many of them in any context. And yeah, it's super-cool to see them, but I think it would have been better if SOMEONE had suggested they had them on hand instead of simply showing them.

They had a big to-do with getting those Y-wings last year, and that was only one operation out of many that would have secured the number of Y-wings we've seen since then. Sure, the U-wings just sort of showed up as well, but they're not of the same status as the two fighters that introduced us to the Rebellion in Episode IV.

Mark

 

[Christopher]

They had a big to-do with getting those Y-wings last year

Oh, good point. Maybe that's why they didn't show how the Rebellion got its X-Wings. It would've been a bit too small-universe if the Ghost crew/Phoenix Squadron had been responsible for getting both of the Rebellion's iconic fighters. Maybe there will be some upcoming novel or comic showing how Leia or Bail or somebody was pivotal in obtaining the X-Wings.

 

[Reverend]

For all we know, they didn't really have that many.

IIRC the TFA crosssections book already established that the Alliance built the bulk of it's own X-Wings and that said X-Wings formed the backbone of the fighter corps.

It makes sense since we already knew that the Alliance built their B-Wings from scratch using a sympathetic shipyard, presumably working on the quiet. If they got not just the first production run from Incom, but all the specs, prototypes, blueprints, spare parts and the like out of storage then it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to think they started making their own X-Wings too.

Indeed, the reason they're designated as T-65B's could possibly be because the T-65's were the original batch built by Incom back in the Clone Wars but the rebels lost them all to attrition. So by the end of the war only the newly built "Bs" would still be left flying. Personally I like the notion that Luke & Wedge's are the last and only "original" X-Wings left, at least one of which probably ended up in a museum.

Oh, good point. Maybe that's why they didn't show how the Rebellion got its X-Wings. It would've been a bit too small-universe if the Ghost crew/Phoenix Squadron had been responsible for getting both of the Rebellion's iconic fighters.

Also a tad repetitive, no?

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I like that train of thought. Nothing to say that they couldn't somehow start a factory line somewhere to build them, by swiping the machinery necessary and beginning mass production. In Legends some A-Wings were built with internal wood paneling due to the place they were built.

Star Wars rarely goes into HOW the various ships are built (indeed, the multi-year factory-on-Lothal plot is arguably the most time ever spent on the notion in the current franchise material), so there's plenty of room for interpretation. They're not about to flip a switch and replicate a ship wholesale, but for all we know it's a relatively easy matter of feeding plans into some generic fabrication machine, getting machined parts out of the other end, applying some elbow grease to a couple dozen droids, and going from scratch to fully assembled X-Wing in as much time as it takes to assemble the average Delta Flyer.

Lockheed is SUPPOSED to build about 200 F-35s a year if production ever ramps up as planned. THAT project leverages thousands of workers and dozens of factory lines spread around the planet to build the most advanced (?) fighter plane ever designed, but it's never been said that anything in the Star Wars universe save the Death Star or Starkiller Base was ever that complex (chalking all the underlying science to principles that have been understood for centuries or more). So could a guerrilla force of Rebels with some plans, some raw materials, and a lot of determination crank out a few dozen or hundred X-Wings in a few years, to go from the first stolen batch in Rebels to the moderate numbers we see in ROTJ?

Sure, why not?

Mark

 

[Tallguy]

2) the Massassi temple is fecking *huge* with multiple levels converted into stacked hanger decks. All we've really seen of the facilities in Rebels so far is the landing/staging grounds outside. They could have had dozens of X-Wings inside this whole time.

Yeah, the huge outside airfields (spacefields?) from Rogue One bugged me. Just because the description from the Star Wars novel led me to believe that everything was housed (and certainly launched) from inside the temple itself.

Probably not completely incompatible, but there we are.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Don't see why not. By Rogue One the temple could have been busting at the seams with fighters, transports, troops and supplies. After Scarif, not so much - but still enough that everyone could fit inside and not attract attention. :P

Mark

 

[Ithekro]

Droids. No one pays any attention to them, so gathering a hundred or so to work an abandoned factory probably won't draw all that much attention. Especially if they are only producing dozens of new fighters a year. Compared with the Empire constantly churning out TIE Fighters in large numbers. I'd expect all the TIEs shown in Thrawn's ambush on Lothal to have been built at that factory along with all the TIE Defenders seen so far. In addition to all the walkers and speeders the factories produce on just this one planet.

The Rebel Alliance does have friends and the galaxy is a very large place. Any random planet could have a factory on it run by mostly droids. Any random planet could be producing X-wing parts without building the whole thing, than shipping them out with whatever else used as a cover so the Empire doesn't look too closely at it (if the Empire is even in a position to look it over at all). Other planets could move an orbital shipyard and produce things outside the view of the Empire. If the Empire has mobile orbital construction platforms, all the Rebellion needs is one they can move around, collecting resources from random systems' asteroid fields and gas giants, than using those things to produce weapons of war.

The Alliance cannot out produce the Empire. They can steal stuff yes, and they have been stealing stuff. But unless they have a good supply of Clone Wars era warships, civilian ships to convert, or stolen Imperial ships, they will need to build stuff to replace losses. That or be really good and not lose anything....and we've seen they aren't that good at that judging by the heavy fighter losses of Phoenix and Green Squadrons, combined with the heavy losses of capital ships last season.

The missing factor is just where the Allaince/Republic manage to get enough ships to basically thrash the Imperial Navy in just over a year starting at the Battle of Endor and ending at the Battle of Jakku. Including taking out all or nearly every single Super Star Destroyer in the fleet. There are supposedly over a dozen of those things in service at the time of the Battle of Endor. A year later, there is basically one left.

 

[Tallguy]

I think this is something that gets overlooked with both Clone Wars and certainly Rebels: The world building has been wonderful.

 

[Reverend]

Finding facilities to produce material and equipment isn't the really difficult part of the rebels building their own ships, it's the sourcing and shipping of the raw materials and all the logistics involved that makes it difficult (though not impossible) to hide.

Sure, the more common metals and composites would be simple enough, they could even smelt down scrap if they had to. It's the sheer volume of materials being transported that makes it difficult to hide. The Empire is likely to have customs inspection along all the major hyperlanes and trade routes, checking for smuggling and enforcing tolls. They'd either have to be bribed or bypassed by finding alternate routes across the galaxy. The former is unreliable (see below) while the latter is very complicated, takes longer and still runs the risk of running into Imperial patrols.

But it's the rarer and more volatile materials that pose a real problem. Fuel. Weapons components. Hyperdrives. That sort of thing. They'd probably have to route a lot of it through the black market, which would be both expensive and dangerous since it just takes one ambitious Hutt or corrupt official that figures the Imperial bounty outweighs the Alliance bribes and the whole supply chain could be compromised and have to be rebuilt elsewhere.


As for how they managed to build a fleet of capital ships in just a few years, it seems most of the credit goes to the Mon Cala who built their fleet of cruisers right under the Empire's noses and staged a mass exodus. As it turns out, Mon Cala buildings are basically large pressure vessels fitted with power generators and life support. Basically ships without engines, so they where the perfect camouflage.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I think it's fair to say that when it comes to capital ships, the Rebellion had zero purpose-built warships through its existence, having to steal, capture or refit existing ships or buildings to their needs. It seems to have followed them through their victory as well, since following Jakku there was a large scale disarmament after which fancy new warships were not a priority; but that's a whole other thread.

Back to assembling fighters, I'm sure that components can and were built at discrete locations and then smuggled to their final assembly lines, possibly at Imperial factories too. In one of my favorite anime shows (specifically, the assorted Universal Century series of the Gundam franchise), many of the various mobile suit (robots) from both sides of a given conflict were actually built by different divisions of the same mega corporation, working above or beneath the counter depending on who was popular at the time. For Rebel starfighters, droids would certainly be tasked for a lot of the work. In the examples of clone and droid factories on Kamino and Geonosis, all the grunt work was by machines, with minor oversight done by meatbags. The Rebels would doubtless leverage these things once recaptured.

Mark