STAR WARS: How could Sidious be more powerful than Yoda?

[Hound of UIster]

so i pondered this earlier at work. Sidious is only 50-60 years old while Yoda is 900 years old. how could Sidious be more powerful than Yoda? was it simply because the dark side allows a person to become much more powerful, or access this power at a much faster rate? it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Well, how do you define "more powerful?" Are you referring to who won their fight in the Senate chamber? That's just physical power, the power to inflict violence. It stands to reason that Sidious would've focused all his efforts on developing that kind of power. Yoda, however, would've probably focused most of his 8-plus centuries of study to more ethereal, spiritual aspects of Force mastery. Yes, he's more than capable in a fight, but that's probably just a small portion of the total range of things he's devoted his studies to over the centuries.

Compare the climactic fight between Vader and Obi-Wan in A New Hope. Vader won the fight (okay, Obi-Wan let him win), but Obi-Wan achieved something far more advanced by transcending the flesh -- and in his own words, becoming more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine. The true master of the Force would understand that physical might is the crudest kind of power.

while I agree with this point, if the Jedi can't defeat the Sith or other Dark-siders in a fight, then they don't get a chance to use their more noble powers and abilities to help others in the first place.

"The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?" - ROTS, pg
356

 

[Cicero]

Yoda underestimated Sidious. In RotJ, he says "don't underestimate the powers of the Emperor", which is what Yoda had done in RotS and what Luke does in RotJ by idiotically tossing his lightsaber away.

On equal ground, Sidious vs Yoda might've played differently, but when Yoda appears in the Emperor's office, actually surprising Sidious, he wastes that advantage on a quip, then gets zapped for his arrogance. He regains his footing, but his time was limited because it was Sidious's playing field and he had help on the way, where as all Yoda had was an escape route. (Yoda made a mistake by not killing Palpatine's aide, Mas Amedda, like he did the two guards.)

Additionally, some part of Palpatine's plan had reduced the Jedi's ability to use the Force, as mentioned in Attack of the Clones.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It wasn't some plan...it was the Dark Side of the Force clouding the future.

 

[Christopher]

while I agree with this point, if the Jedi can't defeat the Sith or other Dark-siders in a fight, then they don't get a chance to use their more noble powers and abilities to help others in the first place.

I didn't say it was impossible for a Jedi to defeat a Sith. I was just addressing the original question of why Palpatine/Sidious's combat skills were comparable to Yoda's despite his far younger age. Given the examples of Jedi we see in the prequels and The Clone Wars, it's clear that Jedi get plenty of combat training while quite young; but it seems to me that eventually you'd reach the limits of that knowledge and that older Jedi would then move on to study higher, subtler levels of Force mastery. So my point is merely that it's oversimplistic to assume that all Force mastery is about fighting and that a Force wielder's combat skills would therefore be in linear proportion to the duration of their studies. Given that Lucas based the Jedi and their philosophy on Shaolin monks and the like, no doubt they would consider mastery of force and weapons to be the crudest, most elementary level of mastery, beyond which would be developing the powers of the mind and spirit. So Yoda and Palpatine could have trained in combat for an equal amount of time and developed comparable physical skills, but Yoda's centuries of further study could've been mostly in the higher spiritual facets of Force mastery.

 

[Disruptor]

Yoda underestimated Sidious. In RotJ, he says "don't underestimate the powers of the Emperor", which is what Yoda had done in RotS and what Luke does in RotJ by idiotically tossing his lightsaber away.

Wow, you could not possibly have missed the point of that scene more completely. Palpatine wanted Luke to give into anger and kill him because then he would succumb to the dark side and become a great force for evil and destruction. But Luke had enough strength, enough wisdom, that he refused to give into rage and brute violence. And when he refused to fight back and Palpatine tortured him, that awoke Vader's long-buried love for his son and triggered his turn back to the light side, and that's what led to the defeat of the Sith once and for all. Luke didn't underestimate the Emperor; rather, the Emperor underestimated Vader's capacity for love. Luke was wise enough to recognize that sometimes the best way to win is not to fight, but instead to let your enemy's own violence be his undoing.

No shit. I got the point. Everyone who saw the movie got the freaking point. In the fairy tale that is Star Wars, that gamble works. The "long buried love" (for a son Vader never knew existed until a few years before) conquers all. (Except when you are force choking the pregnant love of your life. Thanks, RotS, for mucking everything up.)

Luke still underestimated the Emperor's power; I doubt he expected to be lit up like a Christmas tree or he might have thought twice before tossing the saber. Not sure he expected Vader to defend the Emperor with such devotion before that, either. He certainly didn't know the whole Death Star battle was a trap the Emperor planned, either. (The Alliance also underestimated the Emperor.)

 

[Disruptor]

I think it's more a case of the Jedi where so complacent in their own power, they couldn't conceive that they could be defeated.

What should have happened is that Yoda and Obi-wan should have fought together. Get rid of Sidious first then vader or vice versa. Or at the very least the fight should have been reversed with Yoda going after Vader.

Vader was ultimately the key to the destruction of Sidious. If they had done that, Palpatine would have ruled forever.

You are arguing for destiny, and arguing against that is like debating religion...a waste of time.

 

[Christopher]

Luke still underestimated the Emperor's power; I doubt he expected to be lit up like a Christmas tree or he might have thought twice before tossing the saber.

I think he did. I think he was deliberately taking the hit to provoke a reaction from Vader. He'd seen how much it meant to Vader to reach out to Luke as a father, to want them to be together as father and son. So he believed that Vader had it in him to choose Luke over the Emperor, and he let himself be tortured while Vader watched in order to force that choice.

Not sure he expected Vader to defend the Emperor with such devotion before that, either. He certainly didn't know the whole Death Star battle was a trap the Emperor planned, either. (The Alliance also underestimated the Emperor.)

It's kind of silly to insist that everyone underestimated the Emperor when the Emperor lost. Like the standard movie villain he was, he was damned by his own arrogance and overconfidence, and his own underestimation of the power of the heroes' values.

 

[DWF]

Luke still underestimated the Emperor's power; I doubt he expected to be lit up like a Christmas tree or he might have thought twice before tossing the saber.

I think he did. I think he was deliberately taking the hit to provoke a reaction from Vader. He'd seen how much it meant to Vader to reach out to Luke as a father, to want them to be together as father and son. So he believed that Vader had it in him to choose Luke over the Emperor, and he let himself be tortured while Vader watched in order to force that choice.

Not according the novel of the movie, Luke was shocked by Palpatine's use of the Force lightning and tried to use the Force to defend himself but he couldn't do it.

 

[Bisz]

Maybe the Force was just stronger with Sidious than with Yoda?

Yoda is about as powerful a Jedi as we saw, and he was old and wise and had a lot of training, but maybe the Force was just plain stronger with Sidious. Just like the Force was stronger with Yoda than with random Jedi #1138, and it was stronger with that Jedi than it was with random Stormtrooper Bob.

 

[Broccoli]

Is Stormtrooper Bob related to Bob the Goon?

 

[sonak]

Well, Mace Windu defeated Sidious and he was younger than he and Yoda. Natural talent with the Force could just be the difference.

 

[Dream]

Well, Mace Windu defeated Sidious and he was younger than he and Yoda. Natural talent with the Force could just be the difference.

Windu never defeated Sidious. I thought it would've been obvious to everyone by now that that entire fight was a ruse by Sidious to force Anakin to pick the Sith over the Jedi.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yep. Palps totally baited the Jedi.

 

[Broccoli]

^ Yep. Palps totally baited the Jedi.

This begs the question: Was Palpatine also an Internet Troll?

 

[Admiral_Young]

Holonet troll more like

 

[Broccoli]

Holonet troll more like

I bet he spammed forums a lot too.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think that was Mas Amedda's job.

 

[coolghoul]

I think he was deliberately taking the hit to provoke a reaction from Vader. He'd seen how much it meant to Vader to reach out to Luke as a father, to want them to be together as father and son. So he believed that Vader had it in him to choose Luke over the Emperor, and he let himself be tortured while Vader watched in order to force that choice.

I think there are a couple of questions about RoTJ from the story point that I still don't fully understand (so many years later). One is (a new one in this thread?) the whole conversation that Yoda says to Luke that Luke doesn't require any more training.

For reference - here's the script -

YODA
No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.
(Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.)
LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?
YODA
(shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

So far, I'm of the view that Yoda knew that he was dying and couldn't further train Luke, so he was being encouraging. But added to that, I feel that Yoda probably knew (due to his Force perception) that the Force is taking steps to "balance itself" and it's time for Luke to take over the good fight and for Yoda himself to exit, stage left. i.e. Yoda has faith that whatever that is happening is the right thing.

Also - not quite sure what Yoda means by "confront Vader". To Luke it meant fighting and killing Vader and he says that he won't be able to do that and to that Yoda responds that then, the Emperor has already won. But on seeing the rest of the movie (and how it all turns out) perhaps Yoda was saying confront him with the Truth. (Which will set the Universe free?). I am not entirely sure that Yoda truly knows that this is going to happen - I still think he does it at least partially on faith.

Then the other thing is what is Vader's plan and why he takes certain actions - when he tempts Luke, it is clearly suggested that he thinks Luke and him could kill the emperor. But when the time comes and Luke charges the emperor, Vader intercepts the saber strike. If he had not, then the Emperor would have died (the lightsaber is inches from the Emperor when it's stopped by Vader's block) for sure. Why not let the Emperor die at the last moment? Or even why not simultaneously strike the Emperor? I don't have a clear answer to that.

Similarly - what exactly is Palpatine's plan on "turning Luke" over to the Dark Side. Enrage him by baiting him and then - what? get him to kill Vader?! (I *think* so, but I am unsure) I guess the plan was that when Luke killed Vader the rage, self-loathing, guilt would help turn Luke over to the dark side. (Not to mention sticking to the Always-2-there-are maxim).

And then is Luke really thinking anything when he throws the lightsaber away? Does he really think/hope that he should submit himself and *hope* that Vader comes thru at the last moment? I don't think Luke is really thinking at that point. He's just reacting. So I certainly don't think that it was his grand plan (or spur of the moment plan) that he should let Vader watch his son get tortured, to goad him into action. I think he throws away the lightsaber in order to regain the good-light-Force equilibrium which he's in danger of losing as he gives into hate (a bit) during his fight with Vader. From then on, things just happen too fast for Luke to actually think it thru. He appeals to Vader for help, not out of some plan but as a natural appeal to somebody for help.

As for the bolded part of your quote, Christopher - why do you think Luke has seen how Vader wants to reach out to him? Not the lets-band-together-n-kill-the-emperor speech surely. I don't think Vader wants to bond with his son but it's more of a powergrab - more like use Luke to kill the emperor and become the Sith-lord with his son becoming the apprentice.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think it is part of Anakin's conflicted emotions regarding Luke. Anakin wants both. He wants to bond with his son, but he also wants him as an apprentice so they can both overthrow the Emperor. The conflict comes from the dark side's corruption of Anakin's soul and spirit.

Luke's faith is with his father when he tosses away his lightsaber. The realization after he chops off Anakin's hand and looks at his own droid hand brings his mind back to the incident on Dagobah. He knows that way is the wrong way to proceed and is what the Emperor wants. Palpatine's plan...was to encourage the hatred that Luke had towards him and Vader while ignoring his faith and the belief that their was goodness still in Anakin Skywalker. Hatred and anger corrupts and fuels the dark side of the force. We saw this with Anakin to a degree during the prequels. Jealously was the trigger for Anakin. Vengeance was the potential trigger for Luke.

 

[Jax]

I don't think Sidious is more powerful than Yoda, Palpataine gives Yoda his best lighting attack and Yoda not only absorbs this but sends it right back at a very shocked Palpatine. What happens next is they both get thrown and Palpatine gets lucky by having an handle to hold on to while Yoda doesn't and falls Yoda was out of time and fled.

As for the Windu fight, I figure Palpatine always knew he needed Anakin and bet the house n won...for me Windu beat him in the duel fair n square but Palptine always knew if he had too, his force abilities would save him.