I feel like Samuel Breakstone - 'It's not complex enough!!' Kids miraculously 'get' complexity - not convolusion. But it must be complex in a simple way. For me it can't be complex enough. Writer's are just hamstringed by the brass to take risks. I thought Enterprise would be better but it was worse in a lot of ways - the uniforms, the colorless washed out look, the ship.
Star Wars gets it...Star Trek doesn't
- Thread starter davidl28
- Start date
Star Wars is a simplistic family drama/fable that regurgitates standard Western tropes in a nice, apparently shiny new package.
It's easy to digest, easy to follow and deals expressly in binary terms of black/evil and white/good.
Star Trek is to Star Wars what chess is to tic-tac-toe or What a well cooked sirloin steak is to a McDonald's hamburger.
Which isn't to say I don't love Star Wars. I do. A New Hope, Empire Strikes back and the two Clone Wars series are fantastic. Many of the novels are awesome and the gaming is stellar.
Same here. I was always glued to Trek as a kid, and now. Sure, I'd watch Star Wars if it were on TV, or if I find my VHS tapes ( I got both pre-special edition and special editions...and yes, I still use my VHS tapes. ), but....I tried to watch Empire Strikes Back last night.....but could only get to the bit with the Falchon escaping the big worm, I just got so bored.
And the aliens....from what I seen in the Star Wars flicks....most of them are pretty much like humans....with 9 to 5 jobs, paying taxes, swigging their equivilent of beer....pretty much boring. Seeing stuff like Horta, the Crystaline Entity, Borg ( Before Bermen messed them up. ), Q, and so on were much more interesting than Wookies, Hutts, and whatever the smeg species Yoda's from.
Same with the galaxy.....Star Wars' galaxy is pretty much fully explored, everything's mapped, and you can go from one side to another over a weekend....not so exciting to me. I liked Trek because their galaxy is unknown, and that's why the Federation's sending ships out there, to see what's there....and not for money or conquest....just to see what's there and make new neighbors.
And alot of quotes from Trek sound much better than Star Wars quotes.
Compare:
May the Force be with you./Live Long and Prosper.
I got a bad feeling about this!/Risk IS the business!
It is your DESTINY!/To bodly go where no one has gone before.
I know which ones I like more.
Smeg.....Solo would be NOTHING without his gun, or his Yeti sidekick.
I never had any crushes on Star Wars chicks, though I could name several, including ones seen in one story only.
Episode I was for an adult audience? lolwut?
Wow...I read that a little too quick and that sentence had a whole different meaning.
I realize I'm dating myself here, (not in the literal sense, as that would be too weird, unless I were a MU me, in which case, hmmm, yeah...huwhat, oh, yeah. I was making a point) but I saw the original Star Wars first release in theaters as a small kid, and it totally blew me away. If you've been raised on CGI and truly amazing special effects, it's going to be hard for you to grasp what that movie was like to those of us who had never seen anything like it before. It totally took us out of the mundane world and out of previous rather poor attempts at Sci-Fi special effects and put us there in space.
Even as an adult, when I watch the original three Star Wars movies, I still feel an echo of that wonder and amazement I got as a kid. Sadly, it made the prequels all the more impoverished in comparison. However, I think that part of my disappointment in them stems from the expectation of wonder instilled in me as a child. I wanted the same, but they had no way to deliver. I'm not a child anymore, and I'm a lot harder to impress now.
When I was growing up, the only Trek around was TOS. I devoured every single episode I could get my hands on in reruns. I got in trouble continuously for sneaking up past my bedtime to catch them late. I had the Star Wars toys, and I played with them and enjoyed them, but even then I felt like Star Trek was something special in a different way. It made me think. Sometimes it even made me cry (though I never would've admitted it then). It also gave me hope that we humans might one day yet rise above our ape natures and achieve real greatness, something I still hope but don't exactly expect.
The last few movies in the Star Trek franchise left a very bitter taste in my mouth. It angered me that TPTB didn't trust their own source material enough, and didn't trust people in general, to be able to think outside the box or to have fun at a Star Trek movie. It seemed as though they were collapsing under the weight of their own perceived gravitas and trying to do some sort of glorified TV episode instead of making full use of what cinema does best when done right, magic.
I'll be the first to admit Abrams' Star Trek reboot isn't a cerebral bag of tricks, but something happened to me in the theater with that movie that hasn't happened to me in quite a long time at a Star Trek movie. I had fun. I had a blast. I walked out of that theater smiling and said to myself and my spouse, "Now that's what I'm talking about. Star Trek is alive again!" Judging from the reactions of several children who were also in that audience with us, I'd have to say this is the truth.
If that means it's not exactly the Star Trek I grew up with and loved, that's ok by me. Times have changed. The world has changed. Those who don't adapt, don't survive. I'd much rather live in a world with an adapting, changing Star Trek than with none at all, and I don't think toys and merchandising mean all that much in the big scheme of things. Tell a good story in a compelling way, and the fans will come, regardless of age.
Even as an adult, when I watch the original three Star Wars movies, I still feel an echo of that wonder and amazement I got as a kid. Sadly, it made the prequels all the more impoverished in comparison. However, I think that part of my disappointment in them stems from the expectation of wonder instilled in me as a child. I wanted the same, but they had no way to deliver. I'm not a child anymore, and I'm a lot harder to impress now.
When I was growing up, the only Trek around was TOS. I devoured every single episode I could get my hands on in reruns. I got in trouble continuously for sneaking up past my bedtime to catch them late. I had the Star Wars toys, and I played with them and enjoyed them, but even then I felt like Star Trek was something special in a different way. It made me think. Sometimes it even made me cry (though I never would've admitted it then). It also gave me hope that we humans might one day yet rise above our ape natures and achieve real greatness, something I still hope but don't exactly expect.
The last few movies in the Star Trek franchise left a very bitter taste in my mouth. It angered me that TPTB didn't trust their own source material enough, and didn't trust people in general, to be able to think outside the box or to have fun at a Star Trek movie. It seemed as though they were collapsing under the weight of their own perceived gravitas and trying to do some sort of glorified TV episode instead of making full use of what cinema does best when done right, magic.
I'll be the first to admit Abrams' Star Trek reboot isn't a cerebral bag of tricks, but something happened to me in the theater with that movie that hasn't happened to me in quite a long time at a Star Trek movie. I had fun. I had a blast. I walked out of that theater smiling and said to myself and my spouse, "Now that's what I'm talking about. Star Trek is alive again!" Judging from the reactions of several children who were also in that audience with us, I'd have to say this is the truth.
If that means it's not exactly the Star Trek I grew up with and loved, that's ok by me. Times have changed. The world has changed. Those who don't adapt, don't survive. I'd much rather live in a world with an adapting, changing Star Trek than with none at all, and I don't think toys and merchandising mean all that much in the big scheme of things. Tell a good story in a compelling way, and the fans will come, regardless of age.
Star Wars is about freelwheelin' hotshot loners, bounty hunters out for personal gain, knights and evil wizards transferred to an outer space setting. Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers are the same thing...
Star Trek can't be those things and when it tries it betrays the original premise of a space navy and all the hard work, responsibility, duty and honor that go with it, in my view. It's tough to make anything even resembling a military organisation cool. Even JJ Abrams' has had to alter James T Kirk from a hard working, persistence pays off, work your way up from the lower ranks officer... to the James Dean, rebel without a cause guy who gets to Captain virtually overnight in order to make him appeal. It's a significant shift in message from what Gene Roddenberry intended, that has paid off to the tune of box office tills ringing everywhere it seems.
Star Trek can't be those things and when it tries it betrays the original premise of a space navy and all the hard work, responsibility, duty and honor that go with it, in my view. It's tough to make anything even resembling a military organisation cool. Even JJ Abrams' has had to alter James T Kirk from a hard working, persistence pays off, work your way up from the lower ranks officer... to the James Dean, rebel without a cause guy who gets to Captain virtually overnight in order to make him appeal. It's a significant shift in message from what Gene Roddenberry intended, that has paid off to the tune of box office tills ringing everywhere it seems.
Another thought (and I'm sure someone else has had this) is that the best of Star Wars is essentially a dumbed-down samurai/western set in space, and that concept when done properly is never not popular with people.
Star Wars touches the audience in different ways than Star Trek. While ST evokes the SF of the early 20th Century, SW evokes the myths that humanity has absorbed for millenium. Remember, Joseph Campbell stated that Lucas was his best student.
And Trek was never just for adults. Remember Roddenberry had the tricorder created with the toy market in mind. So that little girls could play with tricorders, while the boys played with phasers.
And Trek was never just for adults. Remember Roddenberry had the tricorder created with the toy market in mind. So that little girls could play with tricorders, while the boys played with phasers.
No, it hasn't. Back in the 70's when Star Wars was released, Trek was still considered "cool". But it built it's "coolness" and following in a much different and more organic way than Star Wars did.
Trek started as a T.V. show with very little hype that caught the fancy of a very very small group. The cult fanbase grew as a result of reruns in syndication to extremely high levels to the point that another T.V. show was planned. Those plans ended up as a movie. By the time Star Wars hit, Trek was very definitely still "cool".
It wasn't until the late 80's or maybe the early 90's, after years of talk show hosts, comedians, and documentaries, making jokes about the Trek fandom and emphasizing the more eccentric, that things began to change.
Star Wars started out as a much hyped movie, and it was hyped. I recall being theaters and seeing trailer after trailer before it's release which certainly made me want to see it.
I tend to agree with those who say that if Star Wars had as much product out there as Trek, and it doesn't by a very long shot, it might have a more difficult time maintaining it's "coolness".
I can do it. I've built lego starships when I was 13. When I make the saucer section, it looks like a pixelated circle:
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But it IS possible. lol
Trek just needs the right production team to create an intelligent fun visually dazzling cartoon for kids. Sure exploration and responsibility, progress and and honor are heady topics, but they're human. Regardless of age, if they're presented properly, kids'll love it. Besides, there's plenty of danger, excitement, lust, and everything else there that appeals to anyone. And there have been lots of intelligent successful cartoons out for kids. Gargoyles, Batman, Exosquad...Buzz Lightyear.
I think that's somewhat missing the point. Being 'geared toward adults' doesn't mean including content that earns an 'R' rating. You're not geared toward children because you don't have graphic violence and rough language.
Star Trek is geared toward adults more than children because it has depth and intelligence. It's not, in most cases, a superficial action/adventure show. It's about something. Kids are not likely to want to sit through a show where the crew sit around Picard's quarters discussing the moral implications of intervening or not intervening in a planet's crisis. But adults do.
Now, that's not to say that Star Trek doesn't have its slam-bang action episodes, nor is it to stay that Star Wars doesn't ever have any depth. But, taken on the average, Star Trek tends toward the types of stories that would not appeal to children, while Star Wars remains more accessible to them.
Re: Episode 1-3 -- You can't tell me that the workings of the Republic's Senate, the political machinations of the Trade Federation, the ridiculous romance between Anakin and Padme, the Jedi Council meetings, or any of that held appeal to kids. It was the CGI explosions, lightsaber duels, and cool aliens that did it for the kids. The actual plot of the Star Wars prequels was very adult. Episodes 4-6, not quite so much.
I think this is what he means. Trek may have phasers in place of lightsabers, but there's a reason Lucas calls it a space fantasy, a fairy tale, and Trek is "about us, out there."
TPM may have the "taxation of trade routes" but that's there for the verisimilitude. The story is a simple one following one kid's rise and fall to "The Dark Side" and the strength of familial love. It's deeply deeply important, but it's not as "adult" as holding back your best friend from saving the life of the women you love for the sake of history. I think it's like comparing Beowulf to Byron - both valid, both important, but one, yes, more sophisticated than the other. That's natural, no?
You are assuming that turning Star Trek into a hyper-commercialised phenomenon is a good thing - numbers of people who follow something, is not an indicator of its merit.
Also, when Kirk got killed, the 15 year old me in the theater was 
If Solo or Luke gets killed....I'd probably be going, "Ehhh."
Only SW character, as I mentioned, that I regetted seeing killed was Qui-Gon. Same would go if Lando ever got killed. Only those two guys in the entire SW universe had I any attachment to. The Jedis were all a bunch of pompus assholes fossilized in an old system and were all stagnent, which was a key factor to their downfall....if they, with their so-called 'great powers' could not sence or realize a great evil was practically next door to them untill it was too late, is it any wonder they were pretty much all extinct?
If Solo or Luke gets killed....I'd probably be going, "Ehhh."
Only SW character, as I mentioned, that I regetted seeing killed was Qui-Gon. Same would go if Lando ever got killed. Only those two guys in the entire SW universe had I any attachment to. The Jedis were all a bunch of pompus assholes fossilized in an old system and were all stagnent, which was a key factor to their downfall....if they, with their so-called 'great powers' could not sence or realize a great evil was practically next door to them untill it was too late, is it any wonder they were pretty much all extinct?
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